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Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

The first time I posted the below chart this month, the extrapolation was that Sea ice extent monthly average would end up at 10,072,000 km square. The high res picture of the Arctic, above, is not boding anything that would even remotely consider that September 13 has any hope of showing anything to draw expectation from... deterioration... record thin ice, record broken up ice, record low multi year ice and that captain on the icebreaker logging that any multi-year meters thick ice falls apart "looking rotten", PIOMAS mapping showing nearly 11,000 km cubic anomalously missing. Anyway, with few days left the June finish is under threat to have an average below 10 million km square... it's heading for 10,035,000 now... that red bar at the right side.

... They say it Ain't True ... without a shred of corroborating support... well, that what Tim Ball, Don Easterbrook and Ian Plimer et al make up with their crayons maybe.


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[Jun 26, 2010 4:44:36 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
David Autumns
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

Sek it's nearly July

The temperatures are not gobsmacking in any way shape or form

As I have been saying since March 2007 (Thanks MD)..... Go outside and you will find that it's a perfectly normal day for this time of the year. You really should get out more.

As for me I'm off on a bendy bus to get on a train and then on the Carbon Neutral Eurostar to the Sunny UK today after I have finished tweaking my unbelievably energy efficient number cruncher

Try as I might I cannot get it to take less than 99W at the socket. I have discovered one thing though - it is not possible to passively cool a 65W TDP Processor running flat out on all 4 cores biggrin even with this amount of ironwork http://www.quietpc.com/files/images/products/mugen2-large.jpg <--that's a 12cm fan - If I set it to 400rpm it ticks along nicely at 10.3Ghz combined giving 10448 floating point MIPS towards this great project

That's 105.54 floating point MIPS/Watt in a desktop

Bring on the HDT55TWFGRBOX whistling

I think I'm about ready to launch a new thread titled "Can you do more with less?"

Have a glorious day cool


Dave
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[Jun 27, 2010 9:29:54 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

DA, I'm now in the book of "The Art of Denial" on the chapter "The Act of Denial". You do a very poor showing... continuing to fool yourself into the believe that it ain't true. It IS.

Here's a link to a blog: http://climatesight.org/the-credibility-spectrum/#comment-2320

At the end a Climate Scientist, David Greenwood makes a post and has a [sane] exchange with Kate. The first of the short series here verbatim, in case it goes off-line:

May 25, 2010 @ 6:26 pm

As a climate scientist (I reconstruct climates of the past using the fossil record; search for the terms ‘climate proxies’), I am always puzzled by comments like ‘climate change isn’t proven’. The so-called lack of ‘proof’ for climate change is a complete fallacy. Climate is always changing, and has been throughout earth history. If there is any debate, it is over the cause of that climate change.

For most of earth’s more than 4 billion years of history it has been ice-free at one or both poles. Having ice-covered north and south poles is the ‘normal’ state for the past 2.5 million years, with Antarctic ice likely for the last 40 million years. The northern polar ice-cap has oscillated in size over the last 2 million years (the glacial-interglacial cycles of the Pleistocene Epoch). That oscillation was due primarily to changes in earth’s orbit around the sun (Milankovitch cycles; google for an explanation), a process that has been going on throughout earth’s history. What is different about the last 2-3 million years, and also the last 200 years, is the level of CO2 in the atmosphere.

There are many natural causes for fluctuations in CO2 levels: volcanoes produce both ash (which acts as a temporary coolant) and CO2; marine organisms fix CO2 in their shells which fall to the ocean floor and in the right setting get turned into limestone or other carbonate rocks, ditto coral reefs. As the tectonic plates grind their way under each other at subduction zones, any carbonate rocks are melted and the resulting CO2 is vented by volcanoes. If these same limestones are uplifted on land by mountain building, erosion of those rocks also releases CO2 into the atmosphere. When large areas of peat-accumulating swamps are buried, additional carbon is trapped and forms coal. Accumulating organic matter in oceanic sediments may become oil and gas deposits. This is the carbon cycle and it also incorporates land-based plant photosynthesis and animal respiration, decay etc., but these are minor components of the carbon cycle compared to the volcano-mountain erosion marine limestone story and the formation of hydrocarbon reservoirs (see any intro geology textbook). It is the understanding of the power of the carbon cycle and the primary role played by geological processes that promotes doubt in some geologists minds that present-day climate change is caused by human-sourced CO2 in the atmosphere; they simply don’t believe that we humans have that much influence. I disagree.

Prior to about 4 million years ago (Pliocene epoch and older), CO2 by most lines of evidence sat somewhere about 400-2000 ppm (parts per million) in the atmosphere, and may have been much higher at times. 50-55 million years ago when both poles were forested, CO2 was about 600-800ppm (see Zachos et al. 2008, in Nature vol. 451, January 17th, or google ‘Eocene climate’; several scientific papers on this topic will be coming out over the next couple of months). Throughout the Pleistocene ice-ages CO2 varied in the range 120ppm (glacials) and 280ppm (interglacials). It sits now at about 389ppm, according to NOAA values (see http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/). Present-day levels of CO2 are well established as being from burning fossil fuels and other human activities; a shift from 280 to 389ppm in 150 or so years.

The question really isn’t ‘where did the CO2 come from’, so much as where did it go in the past. You see for most of earth history CO2 has been high. The last 2-3 million years have been an anomaly, with low CO2 the norm. Coal-forming, limestone forming, and similar processes appear to have stored massive amounts of CO2 over the last 50 million years. This period coincides with the appearance of grasslands (a major shift in vegetative cover, with consequences for the albedo of the earth’s surface, hydrology, and for how much carbon is trapped in soils), as well as the period when the Himalayas, Andes and Rocky Mountains were pushed up. Eroding mountains can trap CO2 when it is dissolved in rainwater (I over-simplify).

When CO2 falls below critical thresholds, its influence as a greenhouse gas is overshadowed by other processes, such as orbital shape (Milankovitch cycles). Under lower than 400ppm, the shape of the earth’s orbit became the primary influence, and ice ages resulted. So, we’re busy burning coal, oil and gas that represents carbon dioxide that was fixed by plants and algae on land (coal) and the oceans (most oil and gas) millions of years ago; this was stated by Revell & Suess in 1957, who warned then that releasing all this old CO2 would push up global temperatures. That addition of old CO2 into the atmosphere is returning the atmosphere to a CO2 level it hasn’t seen for at least 4 million years (again, what Revell & Suess said in 1957; watch out for a paper in the scientific journal ‘Geology’ in July on this topic), and ultimately to levels last seen in the Eocene, 50-55 million years ago. 4 million years ago, under CO2 levels a little higher than today, boreal forests extended as far north as northern Ellesmere Island (see Tedford & Harington, 2003 in Nature vol. 425, pp. 388-390); 45 million years ago, these same forests were subtropical. That is our future under a ‘business as usual’ carbon dioxide policy. We can’t influcene astronomical and geological processes, but we can influence how much CO2 is in the atmosphere. That is why we should act now.

All of the above is not conjecture, nor is it my personal theory or someone else’s that I have repeated. It is the current understanding backed up by many scientific papers published over the last 20 years, and especially the last 5 years. I have cited a few here.

Thank you, David, for that great explanation of the current knowledge of the paleo field. It gives us lots to chew over and think about. I am excited to read the paper in Geology this July. In 2009 a paper in Science by Honisch et al found that CO2 is higher now than in the past 2 million years…..and now that estimate is potentially doubling. Scary stuff, why are the revisions to these estimates always in the direction of things getting worse?! -Kate


The June monthly mean has now sunk to 10,031,000 km square at the Arctic, Extent this is on the much broken up, rotten ice. As you know [you give the appearance you don't] in July/August, heat starts to work additive due retention... it's not when the sun is highest when the day is hottest, at least on my one off planet Earth... it's between 1:30-3:30pm... we are 42 minutes east of the true CET daily highest sun position, so it's a bit later for us on the DST set wallclock.

It's so incredibly simple to understand that humans are doing it... we've become a geological factor... Kingsize!
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[Jun 27, 2010 10:08:11 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
David Autumns
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

Kingsize we are not ask Canute

Kingsize is not the life giving gas that makes up 0.0388% of the atmosphere

Some King offered a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse. You are riding the wrong one it is not CO2 that causes Sea Ice to melt

It is the Sun

Go back to first principles an alleged 0.5C positive anomaly by cooking the books does not a Global Crisis make


Dave
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Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

Yeah Yeah, meantime 12C turned into (was that the nighttime temp?)... drums rolling... 28C, near Odiham at 123 meter above sea level:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/se/odiham_latest_weather.html

It's True!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sekerob at Jun 27, 2010 12:17:13 PM]
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retsof
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

Kingsize is not the life giving gas that makes up 0.0388% of the atmosphere
It's actually 0.0391% now, almost 1% higher since you said that.
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[Jun 27, 2010 5:39:07 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

For the Aint True-ists who love to not look further back than what JAXA will... except Uni-Bremen takes same data and then puts in the 1972-2008 average... so all can see how much off things are:



The big picture: http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de:8084/amsr/ice_ext_n.png

No printing error... 1972-2008 average! How many std.dev would this be 2, 3 ,4 ,5?

The Sea Ice IS rotten!

PS: Aint True-ists still not comprehending that 391 ppmv and rising is the major driver within the atmospheric part of our biosphere subjected to rapid climate change... still not comprehending that is causing ocean acidification... still not comprehending that it took hundreds of millions of years to evolve the terrestrial conditions that allowed life to exist on land and ready the extraordinary stable conditions of the last 10 millennia allowing humans to develop to what they are today... at 6.8 billion. In the last few weeks temps as high as 54 Celsius and many dying of heat and thirst in India and Pakistan... but it's NIMBY for some... except for [fill in the blanks] it was 12C on one small area not far from Odiham. Dress up... dressing down for 54C you can't there where aircos are something of a different world! The Inconvenient Truth.
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[Jun 27, 2010 7:19:25 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

North Pole Webcam Image, June 27, 2010, with a few melt ponds (they seem to be early), for superior absorption of SW and LW rays:

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/npole/2010/images/noaa2-2010-0627-135405.jpg
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/npole/2010/images/noaa1-2010-0627-145804.jpg

Anyone wanting to bet Quatloos how it will be looking on September 13, 2010, or rather, not since the station might have sunk by then?

For comparison, a webcam image of June 27, 2009

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/npole/2009/images/noaa1-2009-0627-001704.jpg

Global Cooling, but what 'global' is, is only understood in Aint True quarters.

Happy dreams, for the day after tomorrow might not be holding what you wished for.
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[Jun 27, 2010 8:33:58 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

... and whilst some had their happy dreams about how to BAU [Business as usual] and will argue there are bigger problems today [ignoring that the day after tomorrow problems will be much bigger to overcome], JAXA relentlessly continues reporting the decay... another 97.5k kkm square gone over night. And Yes, DA, we do know about the open door observations that 100 k km is normal for multiple days during sections of the melt period, the difference being that what is currently left is well below the 2007 record low path and the guy at Resolute Point reporting the continued presence of a Big blue sky... like this... 1:47 AM... when big [dark] blue is looming below too sucking up light, 90+%... converting it to heat, instead of deflecting it back to space.



One off-Big image, but how else to convey a big impact to those who just refuse to see it.. meltponds! [will change to link-only later... when I know DA saw it]

The red curve that some hope [me too] will not go where it's pointing... but the [icebreaker] captains log says: The ice is rotten... water below, on the sides, on top... like that glass of water with an ice cube... when you stir it, it melts faster.



It may not touch you, but it will and is touching 6.8 billion others... 54C in Pakistan and people dying because it Ain't True.

PS: Follow the Polarstern research track of the Bremer Uni http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de:8084/amsr/Polarstern_visual.png ... it's in the Arctic now doing observations and measurement... it's already passed through the fastland sea ice of Greenland.

PPS, there is more freeze up at the Antarctic too, same as the fanfared late freeze at the Arctic that peaked at March 31, record late, but like most summers there, it just is not persistent. The coastal ice is thinning, net same as at the Arctic, where almost 11,000 km cubic is missing, anomalously! Just tell us DA, what was the meaning of those date lists of peak and other extents in the past few months? I've still not figured it out.

PPPS: reading that in Limburg, east-adjacent to Belgium farmers have been told to stop watering their lands... you know food they grow... the more immediate problem of drought manifesting, there too... the day after tomorrow when more Euros will be asked in the shops, for opposed to Pakistan, we will still have it...at a price to others!
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[Jun 28, 2010 6:46:07 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

As it happens the guy who's watching the solar disk refraction carrying all sorts of messages also posted the melt pond image, courtesy NOAA:



its very warm as well, water on the ice accelerates the ice thawing from under a lot more. Sea ice is darker with water on it, reducing albedo, increasing absorption of short wave radiation. As EH2r readers know, sea ice starts melting from under when surface temperatures are -11 C or higher. Another important place to look at is an incredible thaw over Hudson Bay,



hmmm

Yes, you wait DA, till September Thirteen acting out the ostrich ... to postpone, postpone, postpone, postpone and then you'll still not see the inconvenient truth and revert to: "wait until next winter when the peak ice date will be even later"... it must be 101 science based insight I suppose.
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