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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
More-about-verbs installment
----------------------------------------and some ruminations as to Indiandutch and Babydanish Thing is I laughed so much yesterday that I couldn’t concentrate. Besides, it was late, late. Case in point: Of course now it's somewhat ridiculous. I know. But … there is even some sense of recognition: it looks as if we're meeting primitive people from some recently discovered tribe Yes, we are simple people, but primitive would be somewhat of a stretch, adriverhoef ![]() and they're trying to speak Dutch without verbs. and they try to laugh through their noses, too .... ![]() Ahem! ![]() And we treat them better. ![]() We don’t cut a toe and heel and put various endings on the bleeding wounds. We just add this ’r’ and the verbs are happy. ![]() Today, I imagined you forgot your upbringing and all that cutting and plastering and just tried the simple (not primitive) way of Babydanish. If you would go Pipo the Clownish in Danish the sentences would go: Mig skrive = me write. And that is not how we adult Danes talk. We know jeg (ik) is jeg/ich/I and not (Googles says:) 'me'. A Danish baby would say: Mig skrive = me schrijf = me write = mich schreibe. (Google gags and says 'ik' so I hope schrijf is the first person singularum). Well, seems it cann’t be done … unless you really try. And I know you can do it. The alphabet Song See, we can handle 28 letters. How many do you handle including your beautiful digraph. On to nouns We operate with neutrum and utrum. No sex or unisex you could say. Large parts of Jutland, however – they must be Indians (the wig-wam type) – have abolished that pesky neutrum and use unisex for everything. Do you operate with the three geni (must be the plural of genus) as do the Germans? The English operate happily with just an ’a’ and an ’an’. So Danish could really be boiled down to just one genus. Those living closest to England has already implemented that, as I mentioned. Tapre Ørn (Brave Eagle) who could not marry Hvide Due (White Dove) because they belonged to different tribes, and therefore they threw themselves to the death in the river and drowned while embracing each other ….. Unfortunately it sounds as if Peter Belli sings ’Tapre Bjørn’ in which case it would be Brave Bear which not all bad. We have an alliteration EDIT: Removed a YouTube link I had for construction purposes. ![]() [Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Nov 3, 2017 8:33:17 PM] |
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adriverhoef
Master Cruncher The Netherlands Joined: Apr 3, 2009 Post Count: 2218 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
More-about-verbs installment So are you saying we should be interpreting this as if you belong to some recently discovered tribe, little mermaid? and some ruminations as to Indiandutch and Babydanish Thing is I laughed so much yesterday that I couldn’t concentrate. Besides, it was late, late. Case in point: Of course now it's somewhat ridiculous. I know. But … there is even some sense of recognition: it looks as if we're meeting primitive people from some recently discovered tribe Yes, we are simple people, but primitive would be somewhat of a stretch, adriverhoef ![]() ![]() Recalling your lack of a need to do mudflat hiking .... Have you had your shoe repaired, BTW? As long as the streets aren't flooding, these shoes are good enough, the position of the hole is not needing immediate repairing action. The soles still have a lot of soul! So there's no sole hole. They're not fit for the sole purpose of catching sole.Once, as a child, I was on the streets, kicking one leg halfway up in the air and lost a shoe. The poor thing disappeared in the ditch. Never found it back. Had to return home with only one shoe. ![]() Ahem! It would ruin your shoes, too. ![]() And we treat them better. ![]() We don’t cut a toe and heel and put various endings on the bleeding wounds. ![]() The alphabet Song I understand you want me to treat that last sentence as a question. OK, we have 26 letters in the Dutch alphabet. It ends in V-W-X-Y-Z. The exciting part is the Y. They will either say 'Ie-grec', 'Griekse ei' or 'ei'. ('ei' is pronounced the same as 'ij'. Try 'zijlijn'.)See, we can handle 28 letters. How many do you handle including your beautiful digraph. If you really want to learn Dutch, then it is a must to know how to pronounce the Dutch alphabet. The Dutch language has a lot of so called diphthongs. Usually quite difficult to pronounce for foreigners. There is a 16 minute lesson, which is a complete lesson for beginners. Learn how to pronounce 'achtentachtig' (88) and 'koeieuier' (cow udder), nowadays spelled as 'koeienuier'. ![]() |
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adriverhoef
Master Cruncher The Netherlands Joined: Apr 3, 2009 Post Count: 2218 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
On to nouns Do you mean 'der', 'die', 'das'?Do you operate with the three geni (must be the plural of genus) as do the Germans? The English operate happily with just an ’a’ and an ’an’. Did you mean 'the'?In Dutch we have 'de' (singular + plural, male and female) and 'het' (singular neutral). de boom = the tree het bos = the forest de bomen = the trees de bossen = the woods Unfortunately it sounds as if Peter Belli sings ’Tapre Bjørn’ in which case it would be Brave Bear which not all bad. We have an alliteration Pietje Bell? |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Back-to-school-first-grade installment
- and how I learned to remember my question marks So are you saying we should be interpreting this as if you belong to some recently discovered tribe, little mermaid? No, that was absolutely not my intention. But I sense I have jumped right into some trap, and I’m not smart enough to figure out how it was built. You may expand, please. ![]() I think we are pretty much like you. Just with a more simplified language and no skates. Soulful soles …. You are a poet, adriverhoef ![]() Kicking off his shoe, tsk tsk, right into a Dutch ditch. What did Mama say? Luckily, I was glad not being a horse, else they would have to nail me a horse shoe (NL: hoefijzer (pron.) = hoof + iron). Hufeijse. Not all that difficult. You could even have been an ezel. To nail you a horse shoe? Hopefully not nail you to a horse shoe? Hestesko. One of my grandfathers was a blacksmith who forged horseshoes from redhot iron and they were nailed to the horse’s hooves. The horse was not nailed to the horseshoes. Do you think we could have run into a ’subscibe you to’ issue again?OK, we have 26 letters Listening calmly until: ’Gg’ . That is very different from anything Danish, and difficult. And I hope there is an error on the videosound at the ’Pp’ . ’Qq’ is a sweet ’ky’; we say ’ku’ with a stress. ’Rr’ is very difficult. Very! We cannot roll our ’r’s. ’Tt’ is far zanfter than in Danish. To me it sounds very close to ’d’ - a 'd' with an upnote. ’Uu’ is ’y’ in Danish’ and ’Yy’ is ’aij’. ’Xx’ almost sounds as if it has a stress Danish style....The name ’Griekse ei’ matches the French ’i grec’. The Italians take the full consequence and call it ’ypsilon’. We simple ones just say 'y' without Greek influence. 26 letters in Dutch. And then I began to wonder: How come you only have two less than us when we have three custom made ones. And to my horror I discover that we don’t have a ’W’ ![]() I understand you want me to treat that last sentence as a question. Yup. ![]() I find the two videos dealing with the alphabet very useful, especially the one where you can see how to arrange your mouth, too. I sampled the 16-minute one, and I do plan on going through it in earnest; if need be (which is more probable than not) several times. I have not given you any examples of the Danish ’stress’, but here is a page where you find a soundexample to the right below the map indicating the – I nearly said ’fault lines’ – stress lines/borders. The example says ’hun’ = ’she’ and ’hund’ = dog. You should be able to hear the difference. Looking forward to work on your next installment which I have gazed has arrived. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
De zwarte hand – I can understand that much of Pietje (diminutive for a boy) Bell, but also because I had this DVD Zwartboek waiting to be seen. Thursday night I succeeded in prying myself from the computer and arranged for a hyggelig film night, only to find out that the one who had borrowed the DVD before me had cleaned it with sandpaper. Ended up watching a streamed TV-programme – my first in two months; that's why I mention it; it's an unusual event in my home – about how a Danish museum succeed in buying Witte deuren by Vilhelm Hammershøi at a Sotheby auction ….Zwartboek en Witte deuren -
----------------------------------------en ezel ![]() EDIT: Sotheby -> Sotheby's [Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Nov 5, 2017 6:07:48 AM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Sexy nouns and gender installment
- that may not be as difficult as I thought at first glance Do you mean 'der', 'die', 'das'? Yes, I do. Anything wrong?Did you mean 'the'? No. I meant: ”The English operate happily with just an ’a’ and an ’an’.”I can see some inconsequence in using the definite form in one case – the German - and the indefinite form in another – the English. But I found that ’a’ and ’an’ were more descriptive of what I wanted to say. You know: Women’s minds don’t necessarily work in straight lines, which life presumably already has taught you ![]() In Dutch we have 'de' (singular + plural, male and female) and 'het' (singular neutral). I’m afraid you lost me already – or I you …’de’ is both singular and plural – ah! I remember you put an ’n’ or ’s’ sometimes modified ’en’ or ’es’ at the end of the nouns to indicate the plural. Oh, you don’t specifically assign a gender to the nouns as the Germans do: ’der’ ’die’ – so in reality it would be unisex, right? In which case this representative of the simple southern Zealand Indian tribe will understand. Or wrong? In which case the said Indian simply is confused. Prøv at forstå (Try to Understand) I don’t know why it is that we assign animal nams to our male singers. Otto Brandenburg is ’the backyard puma’ and Peter Belli ’the wolf’ – very Indianish ![]() ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
They're not fit for the sole purpose of catching sole That sole came from the fishmonger - not a single twist as they kicked him ![]() You are invited on a fishing trip - you don't need to shave, you may pull on you old favorite tattered sweater and you shoes with the hole in them - and let's catch some LIVE indianredfish this big ![]() |
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adriverhoef
Master Cruncher The Netherlands Joined: Apr 3, 2009 Post Count: 2218 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Back-to-school-first-grade installment I was concentrating on Klukkluk's Indiandutch language (and some more tribal examples that I deleted) after I had said "it looks as if we're meeting primitive people from some recently discovered tribe", whereupon you unexpectedly said: "Yes, we are simple people, but primitive would be somewhat of a stretch". So, logically, then I asked jokingly if "… we should be interpreting this as …" So are you saying we should be interpreting this as if you belong to some recently discovered tribe, little mermaid? No, that was absolutely not my intention. But I sense I have jumped right into some trap, and I’m not smart enough to figure out how it was built. You may expand, please.![]() ![]() I think we are pretty much like you. Just with a more simplified language and no skates. Yes, I'm wondering, where are the Danish speedskaters?World Allround Speed Skating Championships for Men (same with more information, although now in Dutch, with Ejnar Sørensen from Denmark, ranked 9th in 1908 and 1911) World Allround Speed Skating Championships for Women Kicking off his shoe, tsk tsk, right into a Dutch ditch. What did Mama say? Don't remember. On the plus side, they were secondhand (mustabeencheap), oldfashioned and (clearly) just 'een klein beetje' (a little bit, ein klein bisschen, un petit peu) too oversized.Luckily, I was glad not being a horse, else they would have to nail me a horse shoe (NL: hoefijzer (pron.) = hoof + iron). Hufeijse. Not all that difficult. You could even have been an ezel. To nail you a horse shoe? Hopefully not nail you to a horse shoe? Hestesko. One of my grandfathers was a blacksmith who forged horseshoes from redhot iron and they were nailed to the horse’s hooves. The horse was not nailed to the horseshoes. Do you think we could have run into a ’subscibe you to’ issue again?OK, we have 26 letters Listening calmly until: ’Gg’ . That is very different from anything Danish, and difficult. And I hope there is an error on the videosound at the ’Pp’ ’Qq’ is a sweet ’ky’; we say ’ku’ with a stress. ’Rr’ is very difficult. Very! We cannot roll our ’r’s. In some Dutch dialects there is hardly a difference between the pronunciation of 'g' and 'r', like I said before, and some sixty years ago the 'r' was much better pronounced, somewhat like this ![]() ’Tt’ is far zanfter than in Danish. To me it sounds very close to ’d’ - a 'd' with an upnote. ’Uu’ is ’y’ in Danish’ and ’Yy’ is ’aij’. I'm afraid it should be 'eij' (from a Dutch point of view).here is a page where you find a soundexample to the right below the map indicating the – I nearly said ’fault lines’ – stress lines/borders. The example says ’hun’ = ’she’ and ’hund’ = dog. You should be able to hear the difference. Very hard to hear, but there is, undeniably, a difference. When they're pronouncing 'hund' I would say there is a very short pause between 'hu' and 'n'. I tried but I can't seem to distinguish the 't' sound in 'hund'.Sexy nouns and gender installment No, so far, so good. - that may not be as difficult as I thought at first glance Do you mean 'der', 'die', 'das'? Yes, I do. Anything wrong?![]() Did you mean 'the'? No. I meant: ”The English operate happily with just an ’a’ and an ’an’.”![]() I mean, in French on the one hand you have definite articles 'le' and 'la' and on the other hand you have the indefinite articles 'un' and 'une'. singular articles ’de’ is both singular and plural – ah! I remember you put an ’n’ or ’s’ sometimes modified ’en’ or ’es’ at the end of the nouns to indicate the plural. Right, … until you need to address a noun by reference: "Paris, the city, did you see it?" or "My cat, have you seen it?" In Dutch you need to know if the referenced noun is male, female or neutral:Oh, you don’t specifically assign a gender to the nouns as the Germans do: ’der’ ’die’ – so in reality it would be unisex, right? "Parijs, het is een stad" (Paris, it's a city) "De koe, zij geeft melk" (The cow, it produces milk) "De kat, hij is zindelijk" (The cat, it is house-trained) "Die kater/poes, heb je hem/haar gezien?" (That tomcat/pussycat, have you seen it?) ('him'/'her') In plural it's often easier: "De honden hier, zij bijten" (The dogs here, they bite) "Mijn katten, heb je ze gezien?" (My cats, have you seen 'them'?) Nice song in Danish, Try To Understand, but as for me the text is going too fast, I can hardly keep up reading (at least I was trying to read) the lyrics. Clicking Reply To The Post without the need for ctrl-A ctrl-C … it's so liberating! ![]() EDIT: poetic→poetical [Edit 1 times, last edit by adriverhoef at Nov 5, 2017 7:54:20 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Thank you for the music installment
- kept me busy listening and updating my 'Songs posted by adriverhoef' file Clicking Reply To The Post without the need for ctrl-A ctrl-C … it's so liberating! You’re right. I didn’t trust it in the beginning, still do the ctrl-A and ctrl-C routine using both hands while repeating ”ctrl-A and now ctrl-C” aloud to myself. You wouldn’t want to see this. But I'm gaining trust that I can post without everything breaking apart. Now I use this procedure in many other instances. Thank you for your patience instructing me, adriverhoef. ![]() Yes, I'm wondering, where are the Danish speedskaters? I do, too. I don’t think it’s our sport. You are the ones with all the streams, the canals, the rivers, and all kinds of waterbodies, which I assume form the basis for your expertise in that particular field. But what now with the climate change? Do you have artificially frozen tracks?The one sport in which my tribe has excelled the most is badminton. Our female curling team has done well internationally, too. Sometimes - as for instance at the 1992 European Championship - we beat the Netherlands in soccer ![]() never to be repeated since ![]() Hey, you cannot keep anything a secret, anymore. Google has discovered I’m trying to learn Dutch ![]() The shoes: Don't remember. On the plus side, they were secondhand (mustabeencheap), oldfashioned and (clearly) just 'een klein beetje' (a little bit, ein klein bisschen, un petit peu) too oversized. What a lot of music you have packed into this beetje paragraph, adriverhoef I know ’een beetje’ and ’een beetje verliefd’ rushed right through my mermaid translate but my Word97 tries to save me from writing it and autocorrects into én beetje. All this helpfulness …. ![]() ![]() ’verliefd’ Now, that’s a cute word in all respects. I never saw the ’fd’ combination before. ’I en skomagerbutik’ deals with the shoemaker who makes shoes for the young woman that make her feet dance, but unfortunately for him, doesn’t make her verliefd in him …. Have to beak off here ![]() - to be continued at the earliest possible opportunity |
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adriverhoef
Master Cruncher The Netherlands Joined: Apr 3, 2009 Post Count: 2218 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
This snippet is from the pocketbook "The Undutchables - Leven In Holland" (Living In Holland) by Colin White and Laurie Boucke, 22nd edition, 2001. Original title: The Undutchables. An observation of the Netherlands: its culture and its inhabitants.
----------------------------------------- Dutch text below is green, I'll add my English translation between parentheses. - From the foreword (voorwoord) or preface: "In dit boek wordt een impressionistische kijk gegeven op bepaalde kanten van de Nederlanders die buitenlanders nogal eens in het oog springen." (In this book an impressionistic vision is given of certain sides of Dutchmen that strikes the foreigner's eye.) … "Misschien zijn er lezers die zich ergeren aan wat zij als stereotypen beschouwen, maar iedereen die buitenlandse reizen maakt of in het buitenland woont, vormt zich nu eenmaal van die clichébeelden. Gelukkig konden de meeste lezers de humor en de overdrijvingen wel accepteren en voelden ze zich niet op hun tenen getrapt." (Maybe there are readers who are annoyed by what they consider stereotypes, but everyone who travels or lives abroad just forms those cliché-images. Luckily most readers were able to accept the humour and the exaggerations and they didn't feel offended.) … HOOFDSTUK 16 De Nederlandse Taal (CHAPTER 16 The Dutch Language) 'Geschreven Nederlands ziet eruit alsof iemand op een schrijfmachine is gaan zitten!' ('Written Dutch looks as if someone went and sat down on a typewriter!') The Dutch Courier, Australië (Australia) Zoals de meeste landslieden houden de Hollanders vol dat hun taal moeilijk is. Nederlands is in wezen een vorm van Duits die zwaar leunt op Engels en Frans, hoewel de meeste geboren Hollanders dat heftig zullen tegenspreken. Als u Duits kent, heeft u het met Nederlands gemakkelijk. Grammaticaal gezien is het eenvoudiger dan Duits. (Like most landsmen Dutchmen persevere that their language is difficult. Dutch is basically a form of German that heavily leans on English and French, although most native Dutchmen will disagree intemperately. If you know German, you will find Dutch easy. From a grammatical viewpoint it is more straightforward than German.) In het buitenland kom je zelden Nederlands tegen. In feite bestaat er buiten de landsgrenzen geen enkele behoefte aan. De keerzijde daarvan is dat wie een half jaar in Holland verblijft zonder zich in die prachtige Nederlandse taal te verdiepen, aanmerkingen krijgt van beledigde inheemse vrienden en kennissen. Als u — daarom — besluit een cursus Nederlands te volgen, en eindelijk ver genoeg bent om iets daarvan in het openbaar te durven gebruiken, zal uw gesprekspartner u gegarandeerd antwoorden in wat hij denkt dat uw moedertaal is. Ze raden daarnaar op grond van uw accent, en vinden het heerlijk om te laten zien dat ze wel één of twee vreemde talen geleerd hebben. (Abroad, you seldom get to stumble across Dutch. In fact there is not the slightest need for it across the country's borders. The other side is that if you stay in the Netherlands for six months without gaining more in-depth knowledge of that beautiful Dutch language, you will be criticized by injured native friends and acquaintances. If you — therefore — decide to take a Dutch language course, and finally reach a level to dare use and say something Dutch in public, your conversation partner will - guaranteed - answer in what he thinks is your mother tongue. They will guess on account of your accent, and they love to show that they were able to have learnt one or even two foreign languages.) Hollandse Taalwet (Dutch Language Law) Hoe beter u Nederlands leert, des te meer Hollanders zullen weigeren Nederlands met u te spreken en des te vaker zullen ze klagen dat u nooit Nederlands geleerd hebt. (The better you learn Dutch, the more Dutchmen will refuse to talk Dutch to you and the more often they will complain that you never learnt Dutch.) Het overvloedige gebruik van allerlei klinkers (dubbelklanken inbegrepen), samen met de hoge woordcombinatieconstructiesgebruiksfrequentie (zoals in het Duits), zorgen ervoor dat de geschreven taal er moeilijk uitziet. Maar in zijn grammatica en uitspraak is het Nederlands zeer consequent. (The superfluous use of all sorts of vowels (diphthongs included), together with the high frequency of usage of constructions of combinations of words (like in German), are causing a certain difficulty level in written language. But in its grammar and pronunciation Dutch is highly logical.) KEELPIJN (UITSPRAAK) (SORE THROAT (PRONUNCIATION)) Er zijn maar een paar moeizame klanken: de gutturale (weergegeven met de letters ‘ (There are only but a few toilsome sounds: the guttural (represented by the letters 'ch' and 'g'), diphthongs such as ui, ij, ei and the difference between the singular and plural a (man, maan = moon). If you haven't gotten acquainted with the language, but you're into an experiment, than you should read aloud the ingredients of a tin of soup for example, with half a mouth full of syrup.) Tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog was het woord 'Scheveningen' (Amerikaans: Shave-a-nigger, uitgesproken met zware keelontsteking) een militaire lakmoestest voor het bezitten van de Nederlandse nationaliteit. (During World War II the word 'Scheveningen' (American: Shave-a-nigger, pronounced with a heavy inflammation of the throat) was a military litmus-test for the possession of the Dutch nationality.) … GRAMMATICA (GRAMMAR) Er zijn twee taalkundige geslachten: onzijdig, en gecombineerd mannelijk/vrouwelijk. Die laatste mengvorm dateert al van vóór de vrouwen- en homobeweging. Voor het Amerikaanse ‘you' kent het Nederlands drie equivalenten. (There are two linguistic genders: neutral, and combined male/female. That last hybrid is already dating from before the women's and gay rights movement. The American 'you' has three Dutch equivalents.) ‘U’, beleefd en afstandelijk, in zakelijk verkeer en tegenover ouderen. ‘U' getuigt van respect, wordt dan ook steeds minder gebruikt en zal, als het taalgebruik in de pas blijft met het nationale afkalven van de beschaving, spoedig verdwijnen. ‘Jij' en ‘je' (inwisselbaar) zijn de familiaire aanspreekvorm. ‘Jullie', niet te verwarren met een maand of een meisje, is het meervoud van jij/je. 'U', polite and aloof, in business-like social intercourse and towards elderly people. 'U' is evidence of respect, is therefore less and less being used and will, if linguistic usage stays in pace with the nationally crumbling away of civilization, disappear soon. 'Jij' and 'je' (exchangeable) are the informal form of address. 'Jullie', not to be confused by the name of a month or that of a girl's name, is the plural of jij/je.) Het karakter van een volk verraadt zich in de taal. Een voorbeeld is het dwangmatig gebruik van verkleinwoorden in de omgangstaal. Zoals een Hollandse huisdokter dat uitlegt: ‘Alles moet het stempel van de kleinschalige tevredenheid dragen, iets dat ikzelf zie als een van onze meest opvallende eigenschappen.' (The national character is revealed by its language. An example is the compulsive use of diminutives in everyday speach. Like a Dutch family physician explains: 'Everything needs to bear the stamp of small-scale contentment, something that I view as one of the most striking characteristics.') Het aanhangsel -je is de meest gebruikelijke manier om te verkleinen. Hollanders drinken een kopje thee, gaan een straatje om en maken zo nu en dan een wereldreisje. (The appendage -je is the most common way to diminish. Dutchmen drink a cup(+je) of tea, walk around the block(+je) and are making a voyage(+je) around a world.) ![]() [Edit 5 times, last edit by adriverhoef at Nov 6, 2017 3:26:08 PM] |
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