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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

"Does no one find it strange that this thread is now 2 and a half pages long and not one "official" person has answered this simple question?

Where are the "moderators"? Or have they been told to keep their mouth shut and let the "members" flounder around and guess the answer?

Their silence seems to suggest that the answer is "no" and they realize that they would kill the project if they confessed up."


Well said. I wait for their ""honest"' official answer !!


No, it's "poorly said." I have no idea what you are "waiting" for. They plainly state "non-profit" on the home page, and that they are making the data freely available. If you doubt me, you can easily find that one click from their home page will take you to the download the data page. You can download the data and the results from their transcriptome profiling project right now. How much more freely available do they need to make it?

I think what is confusing most people is that they don't understand the difference between "raw research" and "targeted research". ISB is not developing a cure for cancer, or a vaccine for AIDS. They are studying at a microbiological level how the body works. You are not donating your cycles to find a cure for cancer. You are donating your cycles to the enhancement of knowledge in the world. At the end of it all, our hopes are that someone in the world will use this data to develop a cure for cancer, or an anti-viral agent, or the ultimate vaccine.

By being a non-profit and making the data freely available, they allow anyone to benefit. A scientist from Merck is free to download and use this information to develop an AIDS vaccine which Merck is then free to sell for $1,000 per dose if they so choose. If you think this is unfair, then you too are free to download this same data and use it to help you develop your own AIDS vaccine, which you are free to give away if you like.

I hope this makes things clearer, because all I've seen so far in this thread is mud.
[Nov 22, 2004 8:28:48 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

I also should have made clear in my previous post that the WCG is not being "driven" by for-profit entities. If you are a researcher who has a project with a huge computing need that you think the WCG could solve for you, then you can submit a proposal to them to request grid services. WCG will not use the power of the grid to compute Boeing aircraft wing turbulence models, for example.

The WCG operates sort of like the United Way. They only provide infrastructure services like servers and bandwidth, but they don't have any in-house research they need done. To the WCG community they provide a 'vetting' function to make sure that only worthwhile non-profit grid computing projects are being computed. They also offer technical advice to the non-profits to help them develop their grid computing clients. Funding for this effort is the donation from IBM to the WCG. Individual projects, like the ISB's proteome folding project, have "passed the test" and been found worthy by the WCG for computing.

Sorry to be so rude in my earlier post, but this whole "conspiracy theory" thing is feeding itself and getting out of hand. It's absolutely frustrating to watch well-intentioned people misleading themselves off a cliff. If you go back and read this whole thread you will see lots of "I'm switching off because I get no official answers here in this forum" type postings, followed by even more "Me too!" postings. These are just self-induced hysterics. Learn to think for yourselves, do a little research. The ISB's web site, for example, couldn't be plainer in that they're a non-profit doing basic research that is being made public. The tiny bit of surfing of their site necessary to discover the data for yourself should have been adequate to quell anyone's fears, but instead people are convincing themselves that they're being taken for a ride.

Again, you're not computing "the cure for cancer". You're helping provide basic research. It might someday help discover a cure for cancer (commercially provided or not.) Look at it this way: would you claim Isaac Newton was helping Boeing when he developed the laws of gravity? Would you rather not have an understanding of gravity because it lead to the commercial exploitation of gravity? Human knowledge is built on a vast array of ideas and understandings from millions of different sources. Don't count this one out because you don't understand where it's going from here.
[Nov 22, 2004 11:39:40 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Brace Potthoff
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

Well said, Jaded. Well said. Even so, I suspect such people will again ignore the answers given to them and keep asking the same questions over and over again: "Is this for non-profit," "will the results be in the hands of the public?" No matter how many times such questions/objections are answered, it doesn't seem to be enough for some people: they are more interested in asking the same question redundantly than listening to the answers to those questions.
[Nov 22, 2004 11:58:10 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

I'm having the same problem as everyone else. Worked for two results and then will not complete a task. I sure hope some at WCG is paying attention; it would be nice if they'd address this publicly and assure us that they're working on a solution. I'm getting cranky.

The above is a cut/paste from a completely different thread having to do with grid software problems. There are now plenty of examples of this same issue, non-existent participation at the board by WCG folks, in lots of threads on this board. The particular forum we are in is suppose to be "assistance for new members". But there seems to be no participatory assistance or oversight......

.....which brings me back to the particular topics on this thread. People like to feel a connection to and an understanding and appreciation of things they donate to. And they like to feel that their donations are appreciated. I agree with the many who note that WCG and ISB would do well to be actively involved here.

I’m wondering why folks from the WCG and ISB have let this thread become an unguided sea of babble. Closing in on 4,000 reads on this thread, there’s a lot of participant interest here and it is not addressed by cut-and-pastes from web pages. This thread is diffuse with issues conflicting or divergent, points valid or irrelevant.

It would be good to have users with “admin” status and names like “joe-wcg” or “jane-wcg”. I also think people might like to see a project-specific forum created for each project, with users with “moderator” status who are scientists from the project. Right now that would be an ISB forum with “joe-isb” and “jane-isb” around to answer questions about what people are contributing to. With science literacy nearly nonexistent this is a unparalleled opportunity for you to interact with a lay community and give back to the interested and philanthropic souls here.

The surest way to kill an idea like this is for the organizers to be unavailable, like your old chemistry professor who you could never see outside of class. Most folks like to be excited about their philanthropic involvement and even try to understand it a little.

Pen
[Nov 23, 2004 2:40:47 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

Michael Brown, thank you for taking the time to post that. :-)
[Nov 23, 2004 2:57:38 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

Michael Brown,

Some of the points you make I have no argument with as they weren’t an issue to me to begin with. However I do disagree with some of the things you have stated, as they are an opinion and not a fact where there is information to suggest that everything isn’t as black and white as you have presented it as I believe you have made some assumptions that shouldn’t be assumed.

“IBM'S GOOD NAME IS IMPORTANT TO THEM. IF YOU ARE WORRIED THAT THEY ARE AN UNTRUSTWORTHY, EVIL CORPORATION BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERESTED IN MAKING MONEY, NEVER FORGET THAT THEIR GOOD NAME IS WORTH MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!”

I think the assumption you make here that their income is based on peoples perceptions of their reputation are highly faulty. There are many companies as big or bigger than IBM that publicly present this very “reputation conscious” face to the public but when you look behind the scenes there is little to support that façade. Due to IBM’s own history, and the fact that corporate giants generally have nothing to fear in the US by breaking rules when it’s in their own best interest, I feel a need to stand on the side of caution and not “assume” that IBM won’t take advantage of a situation to make a few dollars if they think they can get away with it by “word smithing” a few license agreements so that there is a lot of grey area to play with.

However, that being said, IBM (for me) was never the part that draws the largest portion of my mistrust. The drug companies in the US (who are well known and well documented) for leveraging their products for financial gain at the expense of making sure people get the treatment they need. This shows a clear difference in thinking between the drug companies and the people who are taking part in this project. It is quite obvious that the priorities (private financial gain for the few vs. collective donation towards benefit for the many) are at odds. The way in which the data created by the donating population of this project could (and in my mind most likely will be) used to benefit the goals of the few is totally unacceptable to myself and many others here.

To assume a corporate giant, no matter who they are, will do right by others just because of some moral code is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of what we see on a daily basis in this country and may others. So I choose not to believe that this work and our efforts won’t be taken advantage of just because we wouldn’t like it. I choose to remain vigilant and ask for rules & agreements to be put forth that this work won’t be exclusively available to the rich.


“CHARITIES DO NOT REALLY BENEFIT EVERYBODY EQUALLY. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE A BAD THING.”

I don’t believe I ever said the Grid was a bad thing. I believe what I said is that I have concerns about the availability of the work done here. I believe that anyone that needs to benefit from this work should be able to. Not just those that have excessively large bank accounts.

I also don’t believe that my statement was to convey that every person on the face of the earth would receive some benefit from this work. My problem with your statement here is that even though charities don’t benefit everyone (which is a blanket statement) they do benefit the people that are in need of that charity in most cases. For example, AIDS charities don’t benefit me because I don’t have AIDS but if I did I’m sure that I would derive some benefit from those charities. More than that, it’s not that charities WILL benefit the people that have a need, but they have the POTENTIAL to benefit the people that have a need. If the work here is allowed to be patented and taken out of the Public Domain, that potential is eliminated. I have a huge problem with this, as I don’t trust the drug companies, and they give no reason for anyone to do so. So this is not about who this data WILL benefit, it’s about who it has the POTENTIAL to benefit. Big difference.


THIS PROJECT IS A SCIENTIFIC PROJECT. IT IS NOT A COLLABORATIVE ARTWORK OR SOFTWARE PROJECT. IT IS NOT A JOINT EXERCISE IN DESIGNING SOMETHING PATENTABLE. IT SEEKS TO EXTEND SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE (AND ALSO TO PROPAGAGE IT FREELY).

The goal of this project is NOT to extend science. The goal is to use science to benefit the human race with and understanding that allows us to cure disease. Since is the means by which we reach the goal, not the goal itself. If all we were concerned with was advancing science we could just as well study any other topic or any number of different topics. But that’s not what is happening here. This project has been put together to USE science to help us understand the human genome, disease, and eventually how to cure those disease which is the GOAL of this project.

The difference is that just furthering our scientific knowledge doesn’t necessarily mean there is a benefit to be derived from it. An example would be studying stars millions of light years away. It’s all very fascinating but probably won’t ever change my life. With the grid project, finding cures can change my life or the life of someone I love or the lives of people I’ve never met. If you only see this as advancing scientific knowledge then I think you’ve missed the point and the focus of this project.




I think this project is a great start. I’ve often hoped that some enterprising group would step up and do something like this. But I believe that the work done here needs to have the potential to help everyone. It’s time that the human race get past it’s greed and start helping each other. The world becomes a smaller place every year and we better get past putting money before all other things including human lives. I believe that if the work here is allowed to be patented that we will be doing exactly that, giving business the opportunity to place money above all else. Its time we stop denying aid to people based strictly on their income or how big their bank account is. Drug companies can still make money by producing these drugs but I think it’s time for them to not be able to use monopolies on cures or treatments to make a financial killing. Business don’t have average everyday people’s best interests in mind when they do their work, so it’s time that the average everyday people find a way to do what they do, so we can help each other. This project has that potential and the drug companies know it. That’s why I believe that they’ll patent the date here as soon as they possibly can, so they can make sure nobody can help themselves.

If you want to call me a conspiracy theorist.. feel free. But I see examples of things like this happening every day. Not made up stuff.. real laws and actions taken by companies that enforce this system ever day. If you choose to trust companies to do the right thing then you will be disappointed. I don’t see the problem with holding them accountable when we have the chance, which isn’t often.
[Nov 24, 2004 10:10:01 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Alther
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

This issue has been answered in another thread: Make it clear that this is charitable.

This information has been available on this site since day one in the Request for Proposals document. I agree that this information takes a little digging to get at, so we are working on putting this information in a more accessible location.

We DO hear you concerns and are working to resolve/answer them. However, with so many posts and threads and emails, it's a little difficult to keep up, especially since the same questions arise in multiple threads.

Things major items that are currently being worked on:
* Improving the FAQs and making them easier to get to.
* Bug fixes and memory footprint reduction for the client.
* VERY big overhaul how we're currently handling the forums.

We ask that you have patience and appreciate the massive feedback you have given (good and bad).
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Rick Alther
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[Nov 24, 2004 10:52:33 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

The work performed on the World Community Grid is not for profit. This is a philanthropic project currently supported by IBM as a "good citizen " effort. The direct results of work done by the World Community Grid will be in the public domain. For more information go to our Request for Proposals page and download the "RFP Download Link".

- World Community Grid admin
[Nov 27, 2004 6:23:52 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Ignorance IS bliss (raining on the parade)

[Nov 28, 2004 4:33:14 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Is this a Non-Profit organization ??

There are some very good answers to this question all throughout this long thread.

the RFP directly states the requirements for acceptance of a project.

Plus in my opinion it stands that pretty much all research that is put into the public domain will lead to patented products/methods/drugs, etc. That's just the nature of the game.

not-for-profit organizations can even have a patent I'm sure, they just can't pull in a profit....i.e. they re-invest any earnings into the company. Just like the NOT-FOR-PROFIT HOSPITAL I work for.

We all now they get money!!!!! and alot of it. That's how we buy the latest and greatest instruments and technologies to help patients. That's where the income goes instead of into someones bank roll.

For example, I work in a hematology lab. Our cell analyzer uses a system based on the once patented Coulter Principle(patent is expired now though).

they basically took some research groups raw data about cellular resistance in an electical field and adapted those new found ideas into a method to count cells as they pass though an aperature with an electrical current running across it, by measuring(counting) the voltage peaks produced as the resistant RBCs, WBCs, Platelets, etc. pass through.

AND THEN THEY PATENTED IT@!!!! shock And I'm glad!! now nearly every hospital in the country uses the principles that this BIG TIME CORPORATION developed from research data found in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. And patients benefit from it every day. The patents have expired now, and competitors now use the methods and try to improve on them.

that's how it works.....research----publications into the public domain----corporate development on those ideas----patents---humanity benefits----patent expires----more companies get in the game----everyone benfits even more.

see Althers post for more info, and view the linked page. He's the World Community Grid Application Developer

crunch on my friends!!!

<edit> PS, i believe the stranger/member designations under peoples names is purely dependent on how many posts they've made. I believe these can be renamed by the forum administrators. Some friendly terms might be nice!!! wink
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Nov 29, 2004 2:55:31 AM]
[Nov 29, 2004 2:50:14 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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