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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

It's certainly about time someone began to explore and quantify the intrinisic and indirect monetary value of this planet's finite natural resources.

http://tinyurl.com/ke3z3

" ... a landmark 1997 study, published in the journal Nature, concluded the world's ecosystems were worth $33 trillion -- almost double world gross national product at the time. "The estimates we used were conservative," he said.

...

"Current measures of economic wealth ... do not reflect the total economic value of ecosystems and mistakenly treat nature's goods and services as free to use and limitless in abundance," ... applause
[May 13, 2006 7:02:38 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Let's move toward ethanol

Ethanol burning - cool. As long as we don't chop down a rainforest to create the farmland to produce the crops to grow the maize, burn more fossil fuel to farm, harvest & transport it than we get out. Until the economic calculations show we can get more out than we put in, we shouldn't go there. (By the way I would love to work in this area trying to achieve just that - I nearly did embark upon this route many years ago)

First--global warming. We're burning too much. I think everybody but George Bush and Dick Cheney understands the problem. You have to find a way to force people to use less.


It has been tried. President Carter introduced a 55mph speed limit. That would reduce consumption, reduce demand and therefore lower oil prices. Francis Slakey also goes on to ask why the Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency law (Carter again) introduced to get car makers to establish an efficiency standard (27.5 miles per gallon) hasn't been increased in step with technology improvements (it should be 33 mpg now).

Carter didn't get re-elected, so politicians are unstandandably wary of this game. "Everybody" is people who feel restricted by a 55mph limit (even though it won't get them to work any earlier), and ... whoever is benefitting from high oil prices.

Second, were we to adopt a gasoline tax of say $2 or $3 a gallon, offset by a reduction in Social Security [payroll taxes] and some other things to minimize the effects [on working Americans], our consumption would be significantly lower.

So does this mean: charge more for gasoline to encourage people to use less, but give them more money in their pay packet to offset this? Help me with this one: why would I consume less if I had more money to spend? It seems the poor lose out on this deal.

And the income that's flowing to [Iranian President] Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, [Russian President] Vladimir Putin, [Venezuelan President] Hugo Chavez, and a lot of the other people we don't like

Its only fair to add a little history & politics perspective at this point. The US/UK backed a coup in Iran in 1953 installing a repressive regime , and then backed Iraq in attacking the country once it had overthrown the regime. Venuzuela's current leader is a colourful figure, but probably disliked primarily because he holds a different view on social & economic policy than the US... (not forgetting Chile 1968, Nicaragua 1980s.. I looked up US or UK historical intervention in Venezuela but was disappointed ). Russia - well, after "losing" the Cold War, it didn't quite become the democracy that was required.

It's certainly about time someone began to explore and quantify the intrinisic and indirect monetary value of this planet's finite natural resources.


A brave attempt - and the article does point out some flaws. The basic philosophy troubles me though and it appeals to just one cultural value - the dominant one that is damaging the natural assets.

"ecosystems were worth $33 trillion -- almost double world gross national product at the time"
Only double? Now that is worrying. How many years of "Economic Growth " at what percentage will we overtake it? Guess where the Growth is coming from, given that the only net input is energy from the Sun?

Ah good - if this hadn't been in the article its the point I would have made myself:
"one problem for Eco-nomics was that nature is inherently priceless -- without it all life would die."
----------------------------------------
[Edit 8 times, last edit by Former Member at May 13, 2006 11:35:13 PM]
[May 13, 2006 11:08:46 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Let's move toward ethanol

Ethanol burning - cool. As long as we don't chop down a rainforest to create the farmland to produce the crops to grow the maize, burn more fossil fuel to farm, harvest & transport it than we get out. Until the economic calculations show we can get more out than we put in, we shouldn't go there. (By the way I would love to work in this area trying to achieve just that - I nearly did embark upon this route many years ago)

First--global warming. We're burning too much. I think everybody but George Bush and Dick Cheney understands the problem. You have to find a way to force people to use less.


It has been tried. President Carter introduced a 55mph speed limit. That would reduce consumption, reduce demand and therefore lower oil prices. Francis Slakey also goes on to ask why the Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency law (Carter again) introduced to get car makers to establish an efficiency standard (27.5 miles per gallon) hasn't been increased in step with technology improvements (it should be 33 mpg now).

Carter didn't get re-elected, so politicians are unstandandably wary of this game. "Everybody" is people who feel restricted by a 55mph limit (even though it won't get them to work any earlier), and ... whoever is benefitting from high oil prices.

Second, were we to adopt a gasoline tax of say $2 or $3 a gallon, offset by a reduction in Social Security [payroll taxes] and some other things to minimize the effects [on working Americans], our consumption would be significantly lower.

So does this mean: charge more for gasoline to encourage people to use less, but give them more money in their pay packet to offset this? Help me with this one: why would I consume less if I had more money to spend? It seems the poor lose out on this deal.


As we have seen in the UK taxing fuel does not work, apart from the abboration of the fuel tax protests (which were enacted by quite a small minority) we just go on using our vehicles. Whilst from personal experience, train and bus stikes have a greater and longer lasting effect on getting us off public transport and into our vehicles.

The London congestion charge does appear to work, as inner London traffic has been drastically reduced, however what does not appear to be clear is whether this is a general reduction in vehicle use or a case of moving through traffic elsewhere.

As regard alternative fuels, there have been various new dawns many of them accompanied by government subsidies. However most of them have required the retro-fitting of equipment onto vehicles, invalidting the manufacturers warranties. Also there is the issue of fuel availablility and the lack of a fully nation network of filling stations carying these fuels. The is a catch 22, people wont convert their vehicles until the petrol sations have the pumps and the fuel companies wont put in the pumps until there are enough people using the fuel to make them economic.

What does seem to be working is the blending of traditional fuels (petrol and diesel) with biofuels which can be used in unmodified vehicles. Whilst this gets us away from using fossil fuels it does not reduce our general level of fuel consumption.

Governments and lobby groups seem to be fixated on big issues, such a nuclear power verses wind etc, rather than looking to make us more fuels efficient. I have lobbied my MP, and the chancellor for changes in the law which would make having an 'OFF' switch switch on all electrical equipment a requirement. It is all very well to be told to unplug it, but more often than not you then have to spend half an our reprogramming it so that you can use it. My suggestion is that the government place a heavy tax on all electrical goods which don't have an 'OFF' button, this is a win, win, win solution. It raises revenue, it discourages people from buying it, it encourges manufactures to design equipment that can be turned off. The is also the issue of building regualtions, it is perfectly feasible to build homes so well insulated that they need minimal heating and cooling, but there is a reluctance on the part of the construction industry to build such homes, and on the part of the government to change the regs to force them to build such homes.
[May 15, 2006 5:18:05 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

While you both make some good points, I am a bit confused by one statement:
[bb]I have lobbied my MP, and the chancellor for changes in the law which would make having an 'OFF' switch switch on all electrical equipment a requirement. It is all very well to be told to unplug it, but more often than not you then have to spend half an our reprogramming it so that you can use it. My suggestion is that the government place a heavy tax on all electrical goods which don't have an 'OFF' button, this is a win, win, win solution. It raises revenue, it discourages people from buying it, it encourges manufactures to design equipment that can be turned off.

Since all electrical devices have an On/Off switch, I must assume that you are referring to some sort of "Kill switch" that eliminates all passive electric drainage? confused
[May 15, 2006 1:23:48 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

While you both make some good points, I am a bit confused by one statement:
[bb]I have lobbied my MP, and the chancellor for changes in the law which would make having an 'OFF' switch switch on all electrical equipment a requirement. It is all very well to be told to unplug it, but more often than not you then have to spend half an our reprogramming it so that you can use it. My suggestion is that the government place a heavy tax on all electrical goods which don't have an 'OFF' button, this is a win, win, win solution. It raises revenue, it discourages people from buying it, it encourges manufactures to design equipment that can be turned off.

Since all electrical devices have an On/Off switch, I must assume that you are referring to some sort of "Kill switch" that eliminates all passive electric drainage? confused


I took my malfunctioning VCR into a TV repair shop. He told me the EPROM had become corrupted by me turning the device on & off. Yes - I unplugged it after noticing that the "off" switch left it in "standby" mode, clearly still giving off heat. I had read that I would save power and CO2 emissions by unplugging such devices. The repair bill for reprogramming was £40, plus all the hassle & fossil fuel I burned taking it in to the TV shop.

My Digital TV last week gave me instructions to leave it on standby for the next 24 hours (don't turn it off) for a software update. {And this seems to be yet another layer of standby, 'cos if I unplug it for more than an hour.. I have to get out the startup manual} I read recently (New Scientist again) that the UK Government got worried by the projected growth in use of of Plasma screen TVs: the power they consumed when in standby mode, projects a need for four power stations by date X to cope with the demand. Just heating the room..... However when doing a search on their site I only found references to 1998:

29 August 1998 : "about half of all consumer electronics energy is used in stand-by mode. This costs American consumers $1 billion a year in wasted energy."

And this from 14th Feb 1998
"An analogue TV receiver consumes little power when it is on passive standby. Only a few circuits are working, such as those that detect the signal from a remote control. But digital receivers incorporate a computer. This needs regular software updates to control the programme guide, the list of channels and the software that controls access for pay-as-you-view programmes."
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

While you both make some good points, I am a bit confused by one statement:
[bb]I have lobbied my MP, and the chancellor for changes in the law which would make having an 'OFF' switch switch on all electrical equipment a requirement. It is all very well to be told to unplug it, but more often than not you then have to spend half an our reprogramming it so that you can use it. My suggestion is that the government place a heavy tax on all electrical goods which don't have an 'OFF' button, this is a win, win, win solution. It raises revenue, it discourages people from buying it, it encourges manufactures to design equipment that can be turned off.

Since all electrical devices have an On/Off switch, I must assume that you are referring to some sort of "Kill switch" that eliminates all passive electric drainage? confused


Most electrical devices here now have standby switches and not on/off switches, but many of the new set top boxes for digital TV have neither: they have to be left powered up to receive updates both to the software and the electronic programme guide. The Government are switching off analogue TV tranmissions over the next few years and completely so by 2012. So we will all have to have these little power drains running all the time, similarly if we switch to a digital TV rather than a set top box and these use 10% more power than the equivalent analogue TV (joined up government my posterior). They are also talking about switching us to digital radio as well, and the digital reveivers use 10x the power of their analogue equivalents, also they are attempting to cram in so many channels that the quality now where near matches an FM broadcast

All my other AV equipment (other than the TV in the bedroom) has standby switches not on/off switch, if I unplug them I have to get out my manuals to reprogramme them before I can use them. Even the on/off switch on my PC does not turn the PC fully off as withnessed by the continued warmth of the PSU and the fact that the inditcator lights are still on, on both ends of the LAN connection.

If I pull the plug on the microwave oven in the kitchen, I can't use it again until I have reset the clock and so it goes on, and this is just for the appliances I have. angry
[May 16, 2006 7:30:08 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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