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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Additionally there is the problem that they came up with in trials, that of the roughly 160,000 people for whom none of the biometrics being used will work; people who have irises that cannot be differentiated from the pupil, fingers that have callouses or worn ridges so the print recognition wont work, changes to their faces and, or hair so facial recognition will not work. The question that no one has bothered to answer is what will happen to these people. Are they destined to be outcasts from society because they cannot prove their identity or the ID system gives false negatives? Are they destined to be arrested for ID fraud each time they use their card? These people make the system less than 100%, as a result you have a system which is open to abuse. Any system you put in to address the issue of the 160,000 will be a potential loophole for criminals. Which if the technological solution is not 100% then why waste billions of pounds on it when a simple card akin to our driver's licence with your photo, name, address, national insurance number and signature would suffice. [Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Mar 8, 2006 5:03:57 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Regarding the proposed National ID Card proposal by New Labour, first let me thank you for the links, bb. They lead to an informative 3+ non-stop hours of research. (Note: I am a very fast reader.)
It is already plainly evident to me that this is a horrible idea in every sense of the word. It would make much more sense to implement some type of “Phase-In program,” for example: The US has no national scheme but, in practice, driving licenses are used to prove identity and a new bill seeks to add immigration status to the information held by state licensing authorities.Here are just a few of concerns that caught my attention. (Apologies to the authors of the source articles as this info was originally intended to be a “note pad.”) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Lord Falconer told the BBC that the only way to get full benefit from the scheme was for people without a passport to carry one. Under current proposed legislation involuntary registration linked to passport renewal in 2008 would end voluntary program. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Professor Ian Angell, head of The London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) Department of Information Systems said: ‘We don't know what to believe any more. Contradictions, guesswork and wishful thinking on the part of the Home Office make a mockery of any pretence that this scheme is based on serious reasoning.’ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ First LSE feasibility study (Clarke dubbed "technically incompetent" data) under Mr. Simon Davies suggested ID cards would cost more than £300 per person versus the government's claimed figure of £93. All the Home Office will say is that its own running costs - excluding capital investment and other departments' expenditure - will run at £584m a year. The London School of Economics calculates the final bill for taxpayers will fall somewhere between £10billion and £19billion. Anyone who seriously doubts which guesstimate is likely to prove closer to the truth should consider the politicians' track record. For example, the original budget to build the Scottish Parliament was £40 million. It ended up costing taxpayers - the vast majority of whom are English - a staggering £431 million. Portcullis House, an ugly office block for MPs on the banks of the Thames, was meant to cost £165 million but finally came in at £235 million. I could go on but there is only so much human flesh can bear. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Brian Gladman, from Worcester, now a security consultant to US government agencies, said Mr Blair and the home secretary had got it wrong when they accused critics of producing "a technically incompetent report" on ID cards. They had accused the report's main author, a visiting fellow at the London School of Economics, Simon Davies, of bias because he is also a director of Privacy International, a human rights group that opposes ID cards. Now Dr Gladman, who led research into protecting foreign spies from compromising the country's most secure communications system, has written to Mr. Blair saying he was the author of the sections of the report dealing with safety and security. He pointed out that the "technically incompetent" data was subject to review by the LSE before publication by two "independent information security experts, both of whom are internationally recognized for their expertise". He warns the new database will "create safety and security risks for all those whose details are entered on the system". In a damning blow to ministers' claims of bias, he tells Mr. Blair "in case you think that I am an opponent of ID cards, I should point out that I support an irrevocably voluntary, self-funded ID card scheme". He reveals he would rather pay fines than join a compulsory scheme, saying "it is shameful that those who are less well-off will be forced to put themselves at serious risk for a system that serves no purpose that cannot be achieved in other, more effective and less costly ways". _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The former spy chief Stella Rimington criticized government plans to introduce ID cards, saying no one in the intelligence services favored the scheme. Speaking at a meeting of college heads the former director general of MI5 said the cards would not make the country safer and warned that the likelihood of forgery could make them "absolutely useless". _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "The surveillance society has arrived. And the laws in place are not sufficient to protect us against the state and against the private sector, and against all those who will want to use our personal information." _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Corporate Watch, a Quaker-funded research group in Oxford, says that some of the companies now being consulted by the government about possible involvement "have previously overseen disasters in public sector IT work". They included the US giant EDS, BT Global Services and PA Consulting. "While companies involved in these projects must take some of the blame it would be a mistake to ignore the role of poor planning and mismanagement by government departments," the group's report states. It blames huge, over-complex schemes that fail to deliver promised benefits. Acknowledging months of controversy over the civil liberty and cost implications of the scheme, due to start in 2008, Corporate Watch says "relatively little attention seems to have been paid to the significant practical problems of implementing ID cards and the National Identity Register", which will eventually hold data on all 60 million UK biometric identities. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The government justifies this massive adventure primarily on the basis that compulsory cards will significantly reduce terrorism, crime, social security fraud and illegal immigration. But its rationale has imploded. On terrorism, Stella Rimington and Lord Carlile have torpedoed government claims. As for crime, particularly identity theft, senior police officers disagree with the government, while industry experts reckon that the scheme will be corruptible internally and externally and provide a field day for booming high-tech fraud. As for immigration, would-be incomers do not have to have identity cards and on social security fraud well over 90 per cent is down to lies about circumstances, not identity. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Perhaps the Rubicon was crossed after the discovery in 2000 of 50,000 DNA samples wrongly retained. Instead of tightening the regime, the illegality was legitimized and the law changed to allow retention without charge or caution. That experience feeds expectations of creeping extensions of the ID card database, not forgetting that in 1995 Tony Blair was dead against compulsory ID cards. Skepticism is further stoked by government claims that it has a mandate for compulsory cards. Its manifesto, in fact, talked only of 'rolling out [the scheme] initially on a voluntary basis'. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
The whole problem with the volunatary concept is that you have to build the system to cope with 60 million plus entries, even if only one person chooses to have the ID card. Spending millions (more probaly billions) on a system for just one card (or even no cards) makes no sense, thus the Government is going to make every attempt to make the cards compulsory by the backdoor, whilst telling everyone that it is voluntary.
----------------------------------------The best one I thought was when the microsoft warned about the security issues: Microsoft warns ID cards pose massive security risk Central identity database increases risk of "huge" data breach http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/0,3800010403,39153444,00.htm Mind you they would have to if they are going to be supplying the underlying operating systems for the system. ![]() Another thing muted for the ID cards is that they should have contactless RFID, which would in theory mean that people could be tracked where ever they went, unless they had a faraday cage for their card - now there's a business opportunity if ever I saw one. [Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Mar 8, 2006 8:40:29 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
We are already tracking people by cell phone. All we need is cheap data storage to store when they enter / leave each cell. Right now, we store their location while sending / receiving messages.But that's not why I don't have a cell phone. I'm just cheap (and not very social). |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
[lh] We are already tracking people by cell phone. All we need is cheap data storage to store when they enter / leave each cell. Right now, we store their location while sending / receiving messages.But that's not why I don't have a cell phone. I'm just cheap (and not very social). No cell phone for me either. lh. People will ask, "Why not get a cell phone so that people can always get in immediate touch with you?" My reply, "Exactly!!!" Given all the Constitutional/legal rights issues that have surfaced as a result of increased national security concerns on both sides of the Pond, I have started reading the book on Constitutional Law that you recommended. The first section, at least, was well written and informative. It will be interesting to see how the author develops more complex issues as the book proceeds. ![]() My primary misgiving regarding modern living is that as a result of increased information/communication technology the individual will soon be completely unable to simply move to someplace new to start a whole new life for himself. I mean this in the positive, creative and regenerative sense; not as an escape for criminals, deviants and irresponsible citizens. As Alfred J. Prufrock so aptly noted: "For I have known them all already, known them all:— Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons, I have measured out my life with coffee spoons; I know the voices dying with a dying fall Beneath the music from a farther room. So how should I presume? "And I have known the eyes already, known them all— The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase, And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin, When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall, Then how should I begin To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways? And how should I presume?" ![]() [Edit 2 times, last edit by Former Member at Mar 9, 2006 1:21:51 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
"Balance and perspective in all things."
N.F.L. Owners Accept Labor Deal By CLIFTON BROWN Published: March 9, 2006 GRAPEVINE, Tex., March 8 — N.F.L. owners voted Wednesday night to accept a players union proposal to extend the collective bargaining agreement by six years, ensuring labor peace in the league through the 2011 season. The vote was 30 to 2, with the Cincinnati Bengals and the Buffalo Bills voting against it. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/sports/foot...5094&partner=homepage |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
[lh] We are already tracking people by cell phone. All we need is cheap data storage to store when they enter / leave each cell. Right now, we store their location while sending / receiving messages.But that's not why I don't have a cell phone. I'm just cheap (and not very social). No cell phone for me either. lh. People will ask, "Why not get a cell phone so that people can always get in immediate touch with you?" My reply, "Exactly!!!" Unfortunately I have two - one that goes with my job and a personal one The business phone is a pain, particularly when I am on call, however the personal one (for which I rarely give out the number ) actually works out cheaper than my landlines for staying in contact with relatives. After my father died we give my mother a mobile, the thought beng that since she walks alot - several 12+ mile walks a week with various ramblers groups - it would enable her to contact us or emergency serivces if there was a problem ie emergencies only. She now uses it o much for calls and texts that we have moved here from PAYG to contract. So they do have their uses. Looks like we are not going to get a solution to the West Lothian question anytime soon, still what do you expect when the government is made up of so many scottish MPs: No English parliament - Falconer The Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, is set to strongly reject the idea of an English parliament, in a speech to a conference on devolution. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4792120.stm Blair rejects England-only votes Tony Blair has ruled out stopping Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland MPs voting on England-only issues http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4688810.stm |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
It has been an interesting week on channel 4 news, as they have been in Iran.
News From Iran http://www.channel4news.typepad.com/news_from_iran/ What they reported is very different from the Iran presented to us particulalry by the US Administration. It was interesting to note from tonights broadcast that the current US sanctions far from hurting Iran have served it will forcing it to develop its own techical and industrial infrastructure, paving the way for the logical development of its own home grown nuclear power industry. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Now that the Peers have struck down ID cards for the 3rd time, it will be interesting to see if they are able to push through a true voluntary program. Britain would not be well served by either a mandatory program OR a deep schism between the 2 Houses of Parliment.
There finally appears to be the start of some backlash in Iran against the President and perhaps the nuclear program. One unnamed Ayatollah put it well: "The US unsuccessfully tried for 27 years to bring Iran before the Security coucil, but President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad managed to achieve this feat in about 6 months." While this may not be a popular position, I have to wonder if the recent killings/murders in Iraq are not both inevitable and necessary for the stabilization of Iraq. The insurrgents are Sunnis working with Al Queda. They were also the perpertrators of the atrocities committed by Sadam against Shiites and Kurds. The paramilitary know who their enemy is by name. They know where to find him. In a technologically advanced democratic society such as ours, we must live by "rule-of-law" or face anarchy. In Iraq the use of the presumption of innocence and the attendant "rule-of-law" actually enables the terrorists to act with virtual impunity. In a lawless society the "rule-of-law" is irrational and promotes violence and lawlessness. Al Queda knows this vey well and exploits it masterfully. By working with the US Armed forces operating in Iraq the progressive elements of the Iraqi society have necessarily been hamstrung by our ineffective and unrealistic policies. This sectarian violence has been going on for over a thousand years. Usually it has been the Sunnis committing the violence against the Shiites. Maybe the Shiite Iraqis have finally reached the point of being unwilling to just sit around waiting to be slaughtered and have simply made the necessary decision to fight back. I hazard to speculate that they may just be correct. Since it is axiomatic that the only successful way to fight terrorism is through pre-emptive strikes. "Rule-of-law" is simply not applicable to this situation. The US will never achieve success in Iraq until we are actually assisting the people of Iraqi in their own fight to achieve national unity under democratic rule. It's time we stopped allowing the terrorists to use our humanistic values as a tool with which to destroy innocent people and keep an entire country in lawless chaos. I am not condoning murder. I am aware that some of what is going on is purely sectarian revenge-based violence or criminally motivated behavior. I am not saying that "I agree or disagree" with these events. My feelings about all of this are completely irrelevant to what I am saying. My intiention is to discuss the historical/social dynamics that may be at work (regardless of how any of us may feel about these dynamics as individuals) so as to better understand these events. My hypothesis is that since the Iraqis must overtly play by our imposed rules (we are the occupying army); and since our rules are clearly not improving the situation: after the Saddam regime, the 2 invasions by the US, followed by 3 years or carnage - that the Iraqis may be simply exercising their only remaining effective strategy for stopping terrorism given the lousy corner that we have backed them into. We can blame, point fingers, sermonize and debate all we want but the bottom line is that biological facts do not conform to human ideals. When the normal structures of social intercourse fail, human beings are once again compelled to behave in strict conformance with the essential biological facts of life without the customary soothing reassurances of stable social structures. The best mankind can do under these circumstances is to minimize the insanity and carnage as best as is possible; knowing full well that eveyone involved is bound to get dirty in the process. ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Now that the Peers have struck down ID cards for the 3rd time, it will be interesting to see if they are able to push through a true voluntary program. Britain would not be well served by either a mandatory program OR a deep schism between the 2 Houses of Parliment. Well its ping poing back and forth between the two houses on this one caluse and amendment, meantime more people are coming out of the woodwork stating that the government has got if fundementals wrong. Biometrics too unreliable, says EU data protection head And watch out for uber-databases too... http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39157245,00.htm What got my goat the other night was Charles Clark the home secretary arguing that the scheme was still voluntary because passports were voluntary. However when pushed he was unable to answer the point on the fact that if you don't want an ID you can't have a passport, thus the government were restricting one's right to travel as there will be no opt out on a passport application. ![]() |
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