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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

This article features a critical cause of the current violence in Iraq. ("The Hatfields and the McCoys"; Iraqi style.) raised eyebrow

“Younger Clerics Showing Power in Iraq's Unrest”

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 25 — American officials have been repeatedly stunned and frequently thwarted in the past three years by the extraordinary power of Muslim clerics over Iraqi society. But in the sectarian violence of the past few days, that power has taken an ominous turn, as rival hard-line Shiite clerical factions have pushed each other toward more militant and anti-American stances, Iraqi and Western officials say.

. . .

The violence and new militancy has come in part from a competition among Shiite factions to be seen as the protectors of the Shiite masses. The main struggle has been between the leading factions, both backed by Iran, and their spiritual leaders.

Many of the retaliatory attacks after the bombing were led by Mahdi Army militiamen loyal to Moktada al-Sadr, the Shiite cleric whose anti-American crusades have turned him into a rising political power.

His main rival, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, a cleric and the leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or Sciri, defended the right of Shiites to respond to the bombing, and has shown a new willingness to publicly attack the American role in Iraq — once the preserve of Mr. Sadr. He also commands a powerful militia, the Badr Organization.

The more political clerics, Mr. Hiltermann added, "are quite willing to push their agendas no matter what it might lead to, including civil war and the breakup of the country."

. . .

To some extent, the American government did recognize a need to court moderate religious figures who could play roles in Iraq's future. Even before the 2003 invasion, American officials allied themselves with exiled clerics like Ayad Jamal Addin and Sheik Abdel Majid al-Khoei, a member of one of Iraq's most prominent Shiite families.

But the Americans seemed unaware of the complex and deadly rivalries among Iraq's religious factions. After being brought back to Iraq by the Americans in 2003, Mr. Khoei was stabbed to death in the Shiite holy city of Najaf by followers of Mr. Sadr. That killing led the American occupation authority to issue an arrest warrant for Mr. Sadr, which was dropped after he led two bloody uprisings in 2004 and became one of Iraq's most powerful figures.

. . .

Much enmity existed between the Sadr family and the Hakim family. The respected head of the Hakims, Ayatollah Muhammad Bakr al-Hakim, fled to Iran and formed the Supreme Council in the early 1980's. He returned to Iraq after the American invasion, and was killed, along with 100 or so followers, in a car bomb explosion in August 2003. That was when his younger brother, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, took over.

The stridency of Mr. Sadr and Mr. Hakim has also contributed in pushing the older clerics to adopt a more aggressive tone toward Sunni militants, especially as the patience of the Shiite people wears thin in the face of relentless slaughter. After the shrine bombing on Wednesday, Ayatollah Sistani called on "believers" to defend religious sites if the government was unable to do so — exactly the same language that Mr. Sadr used in telling the Mahdi Army to defend places of worship.

The tensions between Mr. Sadr and Mr. Hakim have affected virtually every aspect of Iraqi society. Each man has staked out territory in the police and commando forces by swelling the ranks of those units with their militiamen. This month, Mr. Sadr played the role of kingmaker by throwing his support to Mr. Jaafari during a Shiite vote for the prime ministerial nominee, effectively blocking Mr. Hakim's candidate. Occasionally the rivalry explodes into violence, as it did last summer when Sadr militiamen stormed Supreme Council offices across the south.

Given all this, and amid the growing sectarian bloodshed, the voices of religious moderates like Ayatollah Sistani are increasingly falling on deaf ears. Shiite tribes "have put a lot of pressure on Sistani in the last year to go for revenge," said Mr. Hiltermann of the Crisis Group. "People are just not listening anymore in the face of these sick outrages."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/internation...0000&partner=homepage
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

A few minutes ago as I was setting up tomorrow’s coffee I noticed a few pieces of straw strewn about the hardwood kitchen floors. Reaching down to pick them up, an involuntary smile came across my face. Busted! A piece of straw. I’d been letting the dogs run freely in and out of the house again.

Normally I would quickly snatch it up, hoping that she wouldn't see the evidence. “Don’t you ever get tired of picking up straw” she would ask?

“Actually, no . . .” I smiled silently to myself as the dogs snored loudly from the other room; “I can’t honestly say that I do.” hugs
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

This article features a critical cause of the current violence in Iraq. raised eyebrow

“Younger Clerics Showing Power in Iraq's Unrest”

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 25 — American officials have been repeatedly stunned and frequently thwarted in the past three years by the extraordinary power of Muslim clerics over Iraqi society. But in the sectarian violence of the past few days, that power has taken an ominous turn, as rival hard-line Shiite clerical factions have pushed each other toward more militant and anti-American stances, Iraqi and Western officials say.



"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum."
Lucretious c.94-55 BC

For those who do not understand it in the original biggrin

"So much wrong could religion induce"

Just to further prove nothing we are seeing now is particulalry new, might I suggest reading Francis Bacon's [1561-1625] essay 'Of Unity of Religion' [1625]

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/...y/FrancisBacon/chap3.html

Particular attention should be paid to paragraph six, and the third sword.

Perhaps we delude ourselves and in the light of history, those we see as moderates are the extremists and the extremists are the true representatives of Islam. thinking
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Here, if we take into account the fact that the sunna-shiaa wars/hatred is as old as islam, and the fact that alQaiida is operating in irak, and the fact that talibani/alQaiida/wahabism is FIERCELY anti-shiaa, we can assume that this hypothesis (alQaiida) is plausible, at first glance, to 80%. the justification is easy : the fear of a masisve shiaa gvrnmt, the fear of the stabilization on the actual statu-qo (where sunna lose shiaa "petro" territory), the fear of the (re)empowerment of iran in the sunna "occupied" irak (irak have benn shiaa for 95% of it's history, and kept special ties with persian civilization before the arabist ideology took over in the 1900)

BUT, there is a problem. Even for those guys, the Golden Mosqe is HIGHLY sacred. for wahhabis, it's not like bombing mekka for sure. but it's in the top 3 sacred monuments for all muslims. So, if ever the talibans wanted to "hurt" shiaa, they could have targeted other monuments, or personnalities...


But surely for Wahhabis the the existance of the shrines within the temples would, rather than being sacred, have been idolatrous. Something that was said following the funeral of King Fahd of SA, a Wahhabi, stuck. What was said was that he was buried in a plain unmarked grave, partly so that it should not become a place of pligrimage and thus of idolatry.

For someone with the ulterior motive of creating civil war in Iraq, surely convicing a minion to blow up the mosque on grounds of its idolatrous nature would be an easier task than convicing them to commit suicide, particularly is you can rally the numbers and the degree of violence, seen for twelve drawings in a foreign newspaper, but then I have never studied brain washing techniques so confused
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

[ns]Here, if we take into account the fact that the sunna-shiaa wars/hatred is as old as islam, and the fact that alQaiida is operating in irak, and the fact that talibani/alQaiida/wahabism is FIERCELY anti-shiaa, we can assume that this hypothesis (alQaiida) is plausible, at first glance, to 80%. the justification is easy : the fear of a masisve shiaa gvrnmt, the fear of the stabilization on the actual statu-qo (where sunna lose shiaa "petro" territory), the fear of the (re)empowerment of iran in the sunna "occupied" irak (irak have benn shiaa for 95% of it's history, and kept special ties with persian civilization before the arabist ideology took over in the 1900)

BUT, there is a problem. Even for those guys, the Golden Mosqe is HIGHLY sacred. for wahhabis, it's not like bombing mekka for sure. but it's in the top 3 sacred monuments for all muslims. So, if ever the talibans wanted to "hurt" shiaa, they could have targeted other monuments, or personnalities...


[bb]But surely for Wahhabis the the existance of the shrines within the temples would, rather than being sacred, have been idolatrous. Something that was said following the funeral of King Fahd of SA, a Wahhabi, stuck. What was said was that he was buried in a plain unmarked grave, partly so that it should not become a place of pligrimage and thus of idolatry.

For someone with the ulterior motive of creating civil war in Iraq, surely convicing a minion to blow up the mosque on grounds of its idolatrous nature would be an easier task than convicing them to commit suicide, particularly is you can rally the numbers and the degree of violence, seen for twelve drawings in a foreign newspaper, but then I have never studied brain washing techniques so confused

Yes, bb, in the absence of any evidence, I agree that this hypothesis appears to best fit all of the available facts. But ...

We are still stuck with the anomoly of why the Wahaabi would attack the oil facility in SA if they are the "political action arm" of the Saudi regime as ns (amongst many other observors) appears to believe.

Of course, the most likely explanation is that there is really no "one cause/group/force at work" any more than there is "one explanation." All of these events may simply be almost random erruptions in a landscape of endlessly shifting, unstable and unpredictable forces so powerful and deep-rooted, that there simply is no logic other than chaos and violence itself. So why even bother?

If we have any hope of somehow minimizing the inevitable pain of rapid and widespread cultural/economic transformation, we must attempt to isolate and contain as much of the counter-productive, anti-evolutionary forces from interferring with this difficult historical process as we possibly can.

Right now, it's the "as we possibly can" part that's giving me fits. tongue biggrin
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Interesting articles (sans commentary). applause

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/international/25briefs.html

VIOLENCE BETWEEN ISRAELI FORCES AND PALESTINIAN MILITANTS ESCALATES

Israeli soldiers killed two Palestinians they said were planting bombs along the border fence in the Gaza Strip. One of the dead men was Zayan Dukhan, the son of a new Hamas legislator, Abdel Fattah Dukhan. Later, Israeli missiles hit a car of a group of Palestinians launching a rocket across the Gaza border toward Israel. In another incident, a Hamas militant died when a bomb he was making as he trained other militants blew up. In the West Bank town of Nablus, Israeli troops suspended a six-day operation in which an explosives factory was destroyed, eight Palestinians were killed and dozens wounded, and 14 wanted men were arrested, the army said. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, called on the United Nations Security Council to meet to discuss the Israeli operation. STEVEN ERLANGER (NYT)



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/international/middleeast/25iraq.html

Iran Has Started Producing Enriched Uranium
Published: February 24, 2006

PARIS, Feb. 24 — International nuclear inspectors are expected to report next week that Iran has started producing enriched uranium on a very small scale, indicating that it is striving to solve technological problems in its nuclear program, European officials said today.
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

[ns]Here, if we take into account the fact that the sunna-shiaa wars/hatred is as old as islam, and the fact that alQaiida is operating in irak, and the fact that talibani/alQaiida/wahabism is FIERCELY anti-shiaa, we can assume that this hypothesis (alQaiida) is plausible, at first glance, to 80%. the justification is easy : the fear of a masisve shiaa gvrnmt, the fear of the stabilization on the actual statu-qo (where sunna lose shiaa "petro" territory), the fear of the (re)empowerment of iran in the sunna "occupied" irak (irak have benn shiaa for 95% of it's history, and kept special ties with persian civilization before the arabist ideology took over in the 1900)

BUT, there is a problem. Even for those guys, the Golden Mosqe is HIGHLY sacred. for wahhabis, it's not like bombing mekka for sure. but it's in the top 3 sacred monuments for all muslims. So, if ever the talibans wanted to "hurt" shiaa, they could have targeted other monuments, or personnalities...


[bb]But surely for Wahhabis the the existance of the shrines within the temples would, rather than being sacred, have been idolatrous. Something that was said following the funeral of King Fahd of SA, a Wahhabi, stuck. What was said was that he was buried in a plain unmarked grave, partly so that it should not become a place of pligrimage and thus of idolatry.

For someone with the ulterior motive of creating civil war in Iraq, surely convicing a minion to blow up the mosque on grounds of its idolatrous nature would be an easier task than convicing them to commit suicide, particularly is you can rally the numbers and the degree of violence, seen for twelve drawings in a foreign newspaper, but then I have never studied brain washing techniques so confused

Yes, bb, in the absence of any evidence, I agree that this hypothesis appears to best fit all of the available facts. But ...

We are still stuck with the anomoly of why the Wahaabi would attack the oil facility in SA if they are the "political arm" of the Saudi regime as ns (amongst many other observors) appears to believe.

Of course, the most likely explanation is that there is really no "one cause/group/force at work" any more than there is "one explanation." All of these events may simply be almost random erruptions in a landscape of endlessly shifting, unstable and unpredictable forces so powerful and deep-rooted, that there simply is no logic other than chaos and violence itself. So why even bother?


We must be careful in the linkages we make whilst the Saudi Regime (House of Saud) are Wahhabis, and SA is exporting Wahhabism to the Islamic World, it does not follow that it is the Saudi regime that is doing the exporting. After all there are many Wahhabi or Salifi (to use the non-derogatory term) who do not believe in the right of the House of Saud to rule Saudi Arabia or in their policy to the west and the SA oil reserves, namely the Qutbist Salfis. Which goes to show that there was no anomoly in the attempted oil field attack.

You are probably right, that there is no one cause/group/force at work though it/they may well fall under the umbrella of al-Qaeda. The problem in the West is that we are hung up in science, politics and medicine on single causes and effects.
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

[bb]We must be careful in the linkages we make whilst the Saudi Regime (House of Saud) are Wahhabis, and SA is exporting Wahhabism to the Islamic World, it does not follow that it is the Saudi regime that is doing the exporting. After all there are many Wahhabi or Salifi (to use the non-derogatory term) who do not believe in the right of the House of Saud to rule Saudi Arabia or in their policy to the west and the SA oil reserves, namely the Qutbist Salfis. Which goes to show that there was no anomoly in the attempted oil field attack.

According to previous posts by ns, SA is exporting Wahhabism/Salafism to Islam as part of its goal of becoming the dominant Islamic power in the region.

While it may state in Wikipedia: "Some Salafis believe that most majority-Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, have strayed and that the only answer to the plight of Muslims today is violent jihad. These are the Salafis often called Islamists, jihadis, or Qutbis. These are the Salafis who are linked with terrorism." This position is not universally accepted.

It is unclear to me if this sectarian division actually exists or if it is not a way to determine the extent of the belief in "Jahiliyya" (a metaphor for Western decadence) which constitutes their justification for jihad. Aside from "Jahiliyya" (which both sects share); the emphasis that Qutb places on the primary importance of scholarly studies, and his strong support of sociliasm how are they different?

According to Wikipedia the distinguishing feature of Qutb is: "Finally, Qutb offered his own explanation in Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq, arguing that the serious problems of humankind - materialism, poverty, tyranny, immorality, and ignorance - could only be solved through submission to God's sovereignty, as fulfilled in Islam. Qutb believed that Islam could only be realized as a comprehensive, theocratic system."

Is this really any different from mainstrean Wahhabi thought? One more informative quote from Wikipedia under "Criticism" of Sayyad Qutb:

"Qutb has been interpreted, particularly in Western media, as an intellectual precursor to various Islamic fundamentalist movements of the 1980's to the present, including the notorious international organization, Al-Qaeda. In this view, Qutb is argued to be a theoretical foundation of Islamic extremism. One can find many ideological connections between Qutb's thought and radical fundamentalist groups. These include Qutb's advocacy of an Islamic theocracy as the only legitimate state, his justification of jihad in the conflict against non-Islamic governments, and his uncompromising opposition to Western culture and values. He despised modernity and saw the current world as jahiliyya, the barbarous condition existing before Muhammad. For Qutb, jahiliyya did not allude to the particular time period in Arabia prior to the rise of Islam, as the term is traditionally interprated, but to an antithesis of an Islamic utopia. Qutb also formulated the concept of a self-defining Islamic "vanguard" organization, which some have compared to Vladimir Lenin's concept of the socialist party.

"It is widely known that Qutb's brother, Muhammad Qutb, moved to Saudi Arabia where he became a professor of Islamic Studies. One of Muhammad Qutb's students and an ardent follower was Ayman Zawahiri, who later became the mentor of Osama bin Laden."

From where I sit there is no practical differences between them. But I am just starting to get my feet wet, so please feel free to challenge this position. peace

(EDIT: He despised modernity added later for emphasis.)
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

"It is widely known that Qutb's brother, Muhammad Qutb, moved to Saudi Arabia where he became a professor of Islamic Studies. One of Muhammad Qutb's students and an ardent follower was Ayman Zawahiri, who later became the mentor of Osama bin Laden."

From where I sit there is no practical differences between them. But I am just starting to get my feet wet, so please feel free to challenge this position. peace

(EDIT: He despised modernity added later for emphasis.)


For further reading on Sayyid Qutb, I have found this informative article:

Is this the man who inspired Bin Laden?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,584478,00.html

I have also found this site which appears to explain much, however I am drawing a blank on ascertaining the author's credentials. He is either the best thing since sliced bread according to muslims or an illiterate muslim and an apologist for the wahhabis according to non-muslims (many of whom could be classified as C-PAC). All I can find so far is:
"Haneef James Oliver was majoring in history when he decided to branch off in his studies and research the world's major religions. After becoming Muslim in 1994, he began to examine the creeds and methodologies of the past and contemporary Muslim sects. "The 'Wahhabi' Myth" is a product of Oliver's analysis of the various paths which people have taken to worship God. " and only this, which for me sets alarm bells ringing.

The 'Wahhabi' Myth by Haneef James Oliver
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/index.htm

Perhaps ns, can give us further guidance.
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

All I can find so far is:
"Haneef James Oliver was majoring in history when he decided to branch off in his studies and research the world's major religions. After becoming Muslim in 1994, he began to examine the creeds and methodologies of the past and contemporary Muslim sects. "The 'Wahhabi' Myth" is a product of Oliver's analysis of the various paths which people have taken to worship God. " and only this, which for me sets alarm bells ringing.

The 'Wahhabi' Myth by Haneef James Oliver
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/index.htm

Perhaps ns, can give us further guidance.

Thanks for the links, bb. I've done a summary read through which suggests that this a bit of a "soft site." I've cherry-picked a few that support this impression. My pithy comments are underlined and links are provided. Like you, I am eager to hear what ns has to say. biggrin
- - - - -
Ms. Mattson’s has a “unique” interpretation of Wahhabism:
On October 18, 2001, CNN interviewed Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic Studies from Hartford Seminary. … the questioner asked, … “What is the purpose of the Wahhabi?"

Mattson replied, "No it's not true to characterize Wahhabism that way. This is not a sect. It is the name of a reform movement that began 200 years ago to rid Islamic societies of cultural practices and rigid interpretation that had (been) acquired over the centuries.”
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/intellectuals.htm

They try to give Salafism a “soft spin,” but their subsequent words betray them:

[Reverse order]The media claim that Salafis/"Wahhabis" believe that all those who do not follow their form of Islam are heathens" is a tall tale. Salafis believe that those Muslims who do not follow the understanding of the Salaf are not adhering to these and other clear texts. As such, they do not fall under the above-mentioned Quranic verse as being "rightly guided." Salafis distinguish between those who fall into religious innovation and those who fall into disbelief. [Only those falling into disbelief (heathens) are destined for hell.]…

Regarding adherence to the Salafi methodology, he said, "Adhere to the narrations and way of the Salaf, and beware of newly invented matters (in religion), for all of it is innovation."

The orthodox scholars who came after these early generations also followed the understanding of the Salaf in religious matters. Imam ath-Thahabi said: "It is authentically related from ad-Daraqutni (a scholar from approximately 1,000 years ago) that he said: There is nothing more despised by me than 'ilmul-kalaam (innovated speech and rhetoric).
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/salafism.htm

Bin Laden was supposedly not a Wahhabi or Salafi but a Qutb, which is neither.

“Bin Laden was not inspired by Wahhabism but by the writings of the Egyptian ideologue Sayyid Qutb, who was executed by President Nasser in 1966. Almost every fundamentalist movement in Sunni Islam has been strongly influenced by Qutb, so there is a good case for calling the violence that some of his followers commit "Qutbian terrorism." Qutb urged his followers to withdraw from the moral and spiritual barbarism of modern society and fight it to the death.

. . .

Shaykh Rabee' ibn Hadi al-Madkhali, the renowned Salafi scholar who has written several books refuting the mistakes of Sayyid Qutb, concludes the following about Qutbism: "The Qutbists are the followers of Sayyid Qutb… everything you see of the tribulations, the shedding of blood and the problems in the Islamic world today arise from the methodology (of this man)."
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/index.htm

Wikipedia, however, defines Qutbi as Salafi/Wahhabi

"The term Wahhabi was coined as a reference to Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, an Arabian teacher instrumental in reviving Ibn Taymiya's thought. While the term was once used in Saudi Arabia, it is now usually considered derogatory by self-described Salafis.

"Qutbist Salafis follow the thought of Sayyid Qutb. Those Salafis who do not support terrorism insist that Qutbis are not true Salafis. Others regard such statements as mere "spin" and obfuscation. These critics say that the Saudi establishment has consistently backed the militants, even while claiming not to do so. See the article on Qutbism for further discussion of this controversy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafism

Perhaps the most accurate "snapshot" is:

In an article titled "Terror, Islam and Democracy," Ladan and Roya Boroumand correctly state that "Most young Islamist cadres today are the direct intellectual and spiritual heirs of the Qutbist wing of the Muslim Brotherhood."

"The inspiration for Qutb's thought is not so much the Quran, but the current of western philosophy embodied in thinkers such as Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Qutb's thought -- the blueprint for all subsequent radical Islamist political theology -- is as much a response to 20th-century Europe's experience of 'the death of God' as to anything in the Islamic tradition. Qutbism is in no way traditional. Like all fundamentalist ideology, it is unmistakably modern."

[The rapid breakdown in man’s perceived relationship to the God of his forefathers is psychologically and culturally shattering in any civilization.]
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/osama_sect.htm

and this one in particular:

… he [Leupp] explained that this phenomena "is not Saudi or 'Wahabi' in any exclusive sense. It is part of the zeitgeist of the whole Muslim world right now.

[This zeitgeist is explained in the comments ns has made regarding the extremely destructive effect of the synthesis of the Arab culture with the Muslim religion.]
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/index.htm
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