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Category: Support Forum: Suggestions / Feedback Thread: [Solved] WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis |
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Thread Status: Active Total posts in this thread: 133
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adriverhoef
Master Cruncher The Netherlands Joined: Apr 3, 2009 Post Count: 2070 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
The MIP project squanders a lot of electricity. It should be halted until it's fixed. At the risk of derailing this discussion, would someone be able to explain the issues with the MIP project, or link to one? Thanks! https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewpostinthread?post=605906 [Edit 1 times, last edit by adriverhoef at Nov 2, 2019 11:09:31 AM] |
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jkpearman
Cruncher Joined: Apr 27, 2015 Post Count: 2 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
The MIP project squanders a lot of electricity. It should be halted until it's fixed. At the risk of derailing this discussion, would someone be able to explain the issues with the MIP project, or link to one? Thanks! https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewpostinthread?post=605906 Thank you, that's perfect. Sounds like a knotty problem to solve, it's too bad the workaround requires so much micromanagement. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Hi,
Have further requests for information been refused? Material created for greater transparency promotes further volunteer participation. Sources of transparency can be cited and shared. It's a good thing all around. Was the information request presented to the IBM community grid, Boinc, or a research group? |
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wcgridmember
Advanced Cruncher Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Post Count: 110 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I know. I could potentially be one of those people that would crunch if such a report was published.
Yes, I've contacted WCGrid multiple times though the contact form and the replies I've received showed they had no interest in taking the costs estimation challenge. |
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wcgridmember
Advanced Cruncher Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Post Count: 110 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I would like you to know that since my mother died from cancer I've already resumed crunching for cancer in WCGrid and I'm also crunching on Rosetta because of Covid. I am relativizing my costs' concerns for the moment, but I still think the costs' estimation challenge should be taken. Seriously. Transparency is very important to me.
All the best and Covid-19 to the gallows! |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
wcgridmember, why don't you do a cost estimation yourself, if it is so important to you?
Take the most cost-effective cruncher available today. See how many of these would be needed to generate the WCG output. See what one of these consumes in energy and what the cost is. Consider the purchase price of the cruncher and say it must be replaced every few years. Then add up all the costs for example for a year. Then take into account, that not everybody runs the most cost-effective cruncher available and make a rough estimate how much that would change the yearly cost. Of course you will only get a very rough estimate by that approach, but that is as good as anything the WCG team could do themselves. If you lack any data you need, for example about the output and electricity consumption of an effective cruncher, ask around in this thread. There are many people who could give you some data. And glad to have you on board again :) |
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R.West
Cruncher Joined: Jan 17, 2018 Post Count: 11 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I do share the topic starter's feelings, but from a completely different perspective.
People don't own PCs or laptops anymore, but tablets and Chromebooks, with very limited computational power. They can have virtually no impact on the science at all; it just takes too long and hampers the use of their device for the actual purpose they bought it for. 15 years ago it was normal to have a 250W+ PC idling all day, these day's that's not common anymore. People also try to lower their monthly electricity bill for cost savings or environmental impact. Grid computing does the exact opposite. Cloud computing is getting cheaper and cheaper. How long until it will be cheaper for the scientists to just run their experiments in the cloud, get results faster and get the computational bill redirected to be shared with other cloud-enabled parts of the university or business? Mind you, business that use the cloud won't be buying new servers anymore; wanting to own (powerful) hardware is not so common anymore due to (upfront) costs and the inability to scale up or down. Also, should hyperscale cloud providers ever shift to a different CPU architecture (f.e. ARM) due to costs and lower cooling requirements, even more spare/idle computing time is lost. Currently, AWS is already running it's servers with an average load of over 60%, where as on-premise servers tend to only see 20% average load. So there's less and less room for non-dedicated distributed computing efforts. Even my Android phone 'warns' me about this strange background app that is using way too much CPU time; 'should I close this app so your phone will run faster?' YES/NO Grid Computing stems from a time when computing cycles were expensive and not a commodity. These days, computing cycles are almost free and energy (especially green) is very cheap. Then the question should be: why are we still involved? Are we becoming an unnecessary party sitting between the scientist and their dataset? Does anybody know if scientists still look at grid computing for solutions or do they just shrug their shoulders and fire up an AWS cluster? Is available computing time still the bottleneck or are Junk Science and politics becoming a bigger issue? I know that people involved in BOINC are constantly looking at ways to engage with ordinary people to get them to subscribe and run work units on their hardware. I just think that the world has shifted (or is shifting) in such a way that people aren't able to join anymore, even if they want to, and that at the other end, massive cloud computing is becoming cheaper and cheaper. So where are we heading? Those are the real existential issues at hand as far as I'm seeing it. Please share your views on this. |
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jackielan2000
Advanced Cruncher China Joined: Dec 31, 2005 Post Count: 115 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I've been crunching for WCG on a On&Off basis for 20 years. I still remember using my Twinhead laptop to heat up my small room by crunching projects when I was in Coventry, UK working on my Masters degree. At that time, it was not WCG yet.
----------------------------------------The idea of WCG is to use spared capacity of your devices, not dedicated ones. If you are going out and don't usaully use your PC for anything else when you are out, you should turn it off, not let it on cruching. Don't expect any out come very soon 'cause some research might just get nothing after a very very long time. If you'd like to dedicate your PCs, all cores, 24/7/365, nobody would stop you. It's up to you. But a powerful PC does not give you any right to have a much higher expectation. About cost, if you dedicate your higher power PC and electricity to crunching, you'll get a very very very low ROI (Return of Investment). Me, I use old PCs that should have been thrown away a long time ago. I do crunching while I'm doing something else, like playing online game, chatting or checking on Twitter or Facebook. Maybe I'd leave it on while I'm having a shower or sth. The electricity would have been wasted anyway. So, to me, the cost is very low. I also use crunching as a way to heat up the room, I still do :D. So, nothing wasted. About feedback from WCG, yes, they should do more to communicate with us. Otherwise, many people just lose interest. Well, one problem with scientists is they don't give a **** to the feeling of other people, they are not customer service memebers of a corporation. They won't be in the science field of they do that ;) . It would be nicer and easier if WCG get some more volunteers, specifically old guys, retirees, to do the communication job, utilizing business experience with science. That will generate more positive impact. Admin note: edited for swearing
AMD Athlon64X2 5400+ 2.8G | 2c
----------------------------------------MT6735 1.4G | 4c Helio G85 1.8G |8c Allwinner H2 1G | 4c SnapDragon 810 2.1G | 8c SnapDragon 801 2.5G | 4c [Edit 1 times, last edit by caitilarkin at Apr 10, 2020 5:59:38 PM] |
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jackielan2000
Advanced Cruncher China Joined: Dec 31, 2005 Post Count: 115 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I do share the topic starter's feelings, but from a completely different perspective. People don't own PCs or laptops anymore, but tablets and Chromebooks, with very limited computational power. They can have virtually no impact on the science at all; it just takes too long and hampers the use of their device for the actual purpose they bought it for. On the contrary, I think it's exactly the time to do more crunching with new devices. I have an Android TV box. It's now my main device for crunching because I can leave it on for 24/7. Its power consumption is very low, won't cost much. So do my other Android devices. I've been saying this in the forum for a quite while now that Android devices can be the most powerful computational power in the world. 1.3billion were produced just in 2019. Think of that. My goal is to get, not buy, 100 Android devices and build a crunching farm. And I'll use solar or wind as power to make it green. A green crunching farm.
AMD Athlon64X2 5400+ 2.8G | 2c
----------------------------------------MT6735 1.4G | 4c Helio G85 1.8G |8c Allwinner H2 1G | 4c SnapDragon 810 2.1G | 8c SnapDragon 801 2.5G | 4c [Edit 1 times, last edit by jackielan2000 at Apr 10, 2020 5:51:06 PM] |
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Sgt.Joe
Ace Cruncher USA Joined: Jul 4, 2006 Post Count: 7547 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
Just a word of caution on using some of that old equipment. When you run the numbers on time spent per work unit per watt or number of work units completed per watt those old work horses will be near the bottom of the pack for efficiency.
----------------------------------------Only you can decide if the cost of the electricity is worth the amount of work done. Even if the machine is free, the cost of the electricity per work unit done is going to high compared to a more modern machine. A more modern machine may pay for itself in terms of work done by using less electricity. I can not believe those PIII's are getting much done, but more power to you if you wish to use them. Cheers
Sgt. Joe
*Minnesota Crunchers* |
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