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B2I
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

I think wcgridmember may be on to something. I've crunched for years and spent thousands on extra electricity. One has to admit that we take it on faith that the time and money we spend is making a difference on the good side of the balance sheet.

The study of epistemology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology has always fascinated me. The fact that people are adamant they "know" something when all they really have is faith. Faith in their parents, teachers, textbooks, news reporters, leaders and all levels. Schools require very little direct lab experiment and those they do are canned with credit only for getting the stock answer.

Recently on the news, I keep hearing "I believe the science". What does that mean! the scientific method, the scientists that run the experiments, the peers that review, the governments and giant corporations that selectively fund the work? etc. Several years working in goverment funded research labs has shattered that "Faith" for me.

To mature as a person, you have to come to the realization that most everything you think you know, is something you have , consciously or unconsciously, chosen to believe in.

So, crunch it it makes you feel good; I do-- I am running 12 boxes that help heat my house; just don't be surprised it someday you find it was a waste of time and resources.

Understand belief in "Science" is just faith in a modern religion for most people that have no direct experience in experimentation.
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jackielan2000
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

I think wcgridmember may be on to something. I've crunched for years and spent thousands on extra electricity. One has to admit that we take it on faith that the time and money we spend is making a difference on the good side of the balance sheet.

The study of epistemology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology has always fascinated me. The fact that people are adamant they "know" something when all they really have is faith. Faith in their parents, teachers, textbooks, news reporters, leaders and all levels. Schools require very little direct lab experiment and those they do are canned with credit only for getting the stock answer.

Recently on the news, I keep hearing "I believe the science". What does that mean! the scientific method, the scientists that run the experiments, the peers that review, the governments and giant corporations that selectively fund the work? etc. Several years working in goverment funded research labs has shattered that "Faith" for me.

To mature as a person, you have to come to the realization that most everything you think you know, is something you have , consciously or unconsciously, chosen to believe in.

So, crunch it it makes you feel good; I do-- I am running 12 boxes that help heat my house; just don't be surprised it someday you find it was a waste of time and resources.

Understand belief in "Science" is just faith in a modern religion for most people that have no direct experience in experimentation.

That's why I use old PCs for crunching. Also, heating the room. Because I don't like to WASTE anything.
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AMD Athlon64X2 5400+ 2.8G | 2c
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Helio G85 1.8G |8c
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SnapDragon 801 2.5G | 4c
[Apr 16, 2020 4:59:53 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
B2I
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

That's me. mostly 3 gen I5s an 7s dell optiplexes with a box of spare parts. Sent 6 that were just not cutting it anymore to the Dell recycling program a few months ago. occasionaly search ebay for newer boxes selling cheap.
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Sgt.Joe
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

I think wcgridmember may be on to something. I've crunched for years and spent thousands on extra electricity. One has to admit that we take it on faith that the time and money we spend is making a difference on the good side of the balance sheet.
The study of epistemology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology has always fascinated me. The fact that people are adamant they "know" something when all they really have is faith. Faith in their parents, teachers, textbooks, news reporters, leaders and all levels. Schools require very little direct lab experiment and those they do are canned with credit only for getting the stock answer.
Recently on the news, I keep hearing "I believe the science". What does that mean! the scientific method, the scientists that run the experiments, the peers that review, the governments and giant corporations that selectively fund the work? etc. Several years working in goverment funded research labs has shattered that "Faith" for me.
To mature as a person, you have to come to the realization that most everything you think you know, is something you have , consciously or unconsciously, chosen to believe in.
So, crunch it it makes you feel good; I do-- I am running 12 boxes that help heat my house; just don't be surprised it someday you find it was a waste of time and resources.
Understand belief in "Science" is just faith in a modern religion for most people that have no direct experience in experimentation.

I agree with some of what you are saying although I seem to find some of the views quite cynical. I know people who have worked in research laboratories who have completed some research which enhanced our understanding of some basic processes. In the paraphrased words of Sir Isaac Newton " They stood on the shoulders of giants" and now others are using their work to further knowledge in their area.
Don't tar all schools or students with the same brush. Some schools and teachers encourage students to question and think creatively, but the truly creative both students and teachers can be a rare commodity.
Science is not religion. Science is based on cause and effect which can be replicated. (Yes, I know there are some researchers who cheat and doctor their data to reach a predetermined result - hence peer review.) In a nutshell observe, question the observation for why or how, hypothesize a prediction or theory, test the hypothesis, check your results. If your results can be replicated and verified, we may have learned something.
Religion is a matter of faith. I see no conflict between the two.
I do feel good crunching and I hope it adds to our knowledge, saves the researchers time and money, helps to heat my house, and maybe, just maybe, down the road saves somebody's life or shortens their pain from whatever malady might afflict them.
Keep on crunching, it might just do some good, if not today, maybe tomorrow or next year or some indeterminate time down the road.
Cheers
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Sgt. Joe
*Minnesota Crunchers*
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sgt.Joe at Apr 16, 2020 6:50:48 PM]
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PecosRiverM
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

Science is based on cause and effect which can be replicated.


Also on Theory (which is just a guess or opinion) ie: theory of evolution.

I don't worry about the cost (other than paying the electric bill) vs the benefit.



coffee
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B2I
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

Hey Sgt. I've seen your name here at WCG since I first started crunching. Even joined your team once as part of a Camper Trek I believe.

Don't mean to sound cynical. Just came to a point in my long life of experience, study, and meditation to realize that the things we can have first hand knowledge of and really know, are almost nil. It's all based on trust or faith. Just pick one thing you think you really "know" and think about how you "know" it. For example, I'm not a flat earth believer because of my many years in Satellite Operations. I know that we can calculate where a satellite will be based on where it has been using Newtonian math and it has to circle the earth to make any sense at all. And, I've seen it work, thousands of times. So that went into a "this I know" part of the brain.

On the other hand, I used to think I understood electronics and basic chemistry based on the Bohr model of the atom. Now I know it was just a theory to explain observed phenomenon. After reading a couple of books, I thought I then understood it all could explained by sub atomic particles if we could just get enough energy to bust them apart we would eventually get to the real bottom of this matter/energy thing. Now it seems the best and brightest think that there are no particles at all, only different frequencies of electromagnetic waves or fields that reinforce or negate each other and give the illusion of solid matter or even photons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNVQfWC_evg&list=WL&index=2&t=1872s If this is all true, then what is reality.

This line of thought took me to to the world of non-Aristotelian logic and General Semantics and into a world where there are no binaries or absolutes, then to Quantum Psychology by Anton Wilson language prevents us from seeing reality so the goal is to see reality without thinking in words that hold us back, to .................

Sorry to go all esoteric on ya but the question posed originally about what we really know about the WCG scientists work just sparked a need to comment and then explain my comment.

So, I have come to believe ,via logic and observation, most ( as in almost all) of those that say the trust Science have no more basis than those that believe in anything else. It is just a way for then to feel secure and not have to deal with the big questions we must all face sooner or later (later might be after the last heart beat on earth).

Ok I've gone on too long. Don't usually post these type thoughts. I've gotten way outside the bounds of the original question.

I go now.

Curnch it you think it is to the benefit of the common and makes you happy. If you don't--don't.

B2I
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Sgt.Joe
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

OK, this is a little off-topic here, but I appreciate your observations. Science is the search for answers. We observe, come up with theories to explain what we observe and experiment to see if we are right. I test the theory of gravity every day when I drop something. Son of gun, every day it falls to the floor. So, I pretty much believe, from my frame of reference, gravity exists and it works pretty much the same every day. Thankfully, neither myself nor the object dropped is traveling in relation to the earth at any significant fraction of the speed of light. Otherwise I would have to account for relativistic effects and the math of Einstein would have to supersede the math of Newton.
The long and the short of it is, the more knowledge we gain, the more we want to know and the more questions we ask. Is there a elemental particle which can not be divided or is there just energy fields at that level ? We don't know. Can anything exist below the Planck length ? This is not even testable as far as I know.
The universe, from small to big, is fascinating place which we do yet fully understand. Crunch on.
Cheers
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Sgt. Joe
*Minnesota Crunchers*
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gta198
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

String theory: The universe is based on vibrations

The Beach Boys: Good, good, good, good vibrations...
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wcgridmember
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

I'm not so sure about the passing of some crunching from European crunchers to US crunchers because of the difference in the price of electricity anymore. It would require European crunchers to finance redundant machines in the US and that would be a needless source of waste (not only financial, but also in terms of precious/rare materials and from polluting chemicals). We'd rather focus our attention in maximizing the use of machines that people already have (while aiming to use as much renewable and clean energy as possible to run them).
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Jim1348
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Re: WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis

So, I have come to believe ,via logic and observation, most ( as in almost all) of those that say the trust Science have no more basis than those that believe in anything else. It is just a way for then to feel secure and not have to deal with the big questions we must all face sooner or later (later might be after the last heart beat on earth).

Of course there is a basis. It is founded in cause and effect (or prediction and result). You see if the scientists do better than the talk-show hosts, or whomever you want to compare them to.

But then, you have to be smart enough to detect the difference. That is the sticking point these days.
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