Index | Recent Threads | Unanswered Threads | Who's Active | Guidelines | Search |
World Community Grid Forums
Category: Support Forum: Suggestions / Feedback Thread: [Solved] WCGrid Cost-Benefit Analysis |
No member browsing this thread |
Thread Status: Active Total posts in this thread: 133
|
Author |
|
wcgridmember
Advanced Cruncher Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Post Count: 110 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I've contributed to WCGrid for a few years, but I stopped contributing, because of lack of transparency from the platform maintainers. Namely, while they say:
----------------------------------------«The net societal benefit of the use of World Community Grid far outweighs the minimal additional energy which may be drawn from the otherwise idle devices. The power of the grid enables researchers to complete computations in months instead of years and bring new, exciting innovations and solutions to health and environmental issues which affect our communities, our global neighbors and the environment.» They don't backup this claim with data. Which means that the benefits of running WCGrid might not actually compensate for all negative externalities: Hardware wear, energy spent, pollution from using that extra energy, noise pollution, etc. ... If my memory is fine, I think someone from the staff once said that this WCGrid approach is like finding a needle not in a haystack, but in lots of them and while having only time to search in a few of them. This only reinforces my idea that WCGrid should make a regular report with an analysis to the cost-benefit of running its platform (even if the use of very rough estimates are required) if it wants its reputation intact. I've suggested the publishing of such a report using this website's contact form a few times many months ago and got no interest back from them. Should we actually contribute to WCGrid without transparency on this issue? I've even thought of publishing the following quatrain in a book to highlight this issue: World Community Grid Is asking for your computing power. But does it not also rid Of your dough and flour? Oh, now I do know From a few estimations That the costs are low The end of my frustrations Let's compute as much as we can Hopefully soon we'll have results From the peasant to the businessman From the children to the adults After these estimations, I am now convinced! ////// post edited to remove exclamation point and emoji on the title. Thank you [Edit 3 times, last edit by caitilarkin at Feb 4, 2021 3:52:15 PM] |
||
|
Sgt.Joe
Ace Cruncher USA Joined: Jul 4, 2006 Post Count: 7547 Status: Recently Active Project Badges: |
The original concept of grid computing was using the spare capacity of your computer when it was on. It would cost you a little bit in electricity and some extra wear and tear on your machine, but the effect was designed to be minimal. However, there are those of us who believe in the good this work will do and have some machines strictly dedicated to crunching for the benefit of mankind. Yes, this costs some of a not insubstantial amount for hardware and electricity, but the bottom line is if we did not do this work, it would probably not get done at all. If the scientists whose work we are doing had to pay for the computer time necessary, they could not afford it and if they could not afford the cost, the work would not get done.
----------------------------------------If you know of a more efficient way to to accomplish the work that is being done here, let's hear your ideas. Cheers
Sgt. Joe
*Minnesota Crunchers* |
||
|
Eugene Zenzen
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Mar 31, 2006 Post Count: 888 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
Well said, Sarge, I agree.
---------------------------------------- |
||
|
KerSamson
Master Cruncher Switzerland Joined: Jan 29, 2007 Post Count: 1670 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I completely agree with Sgt.Joe's statement.
----------------------------------------Making able that the needed work can be done is the only one motivation I have for dedicating my machines to WCG. However, even if scientists are usually deeply focused on their research work and less aware about efficiency, it is more than reasonable to expect computational efficiency as well, since WCG dedication remains costly for the members. I would like to take this opportunity to remind that some projects are significantly more efficient that others. It will be really appreciated by every of us, that some improvements could be achieved by some projects (especially MIP1, but MCM on Linux as well). IT has to become "greener" (see for example The Shift Project); and WCG is part of this IT world. I did not change my opinion about computational efficiency since I became WCG member and contributor. I am still considering that even WCG sciences could become better and more efficient. Regarding the number of involved machines, any improvement, even the small one, have a significant impact on both the resulting carbon footprint as well as the required time for earning results. Happy and adamant crunching on WCG, Yves ---------------------------------------- [Edit 2 times, last edit by KerSamson at Jul 7, 2019 12:58:05 PM] |
||
|
Aurum
Master Cruncher The Great Basin Joined: Dec 24, 2017 Post Count: 2384 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
I think recipients of BOINC donations should stop propagating the fallacy that this work is from "spare computer time." They have the data so prove it.
----------------------------------------The MIP project squanders a lot of electricity. It should be halted until it's fixed. ...KRI please cancel all shadow-banning [Edit 1 times, last edit by Aurum420 at Jul 7, 2019 12:45:16 PM] |
||
|
Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
I bought 14 servers from a reseller 10 years ago and they are still running. Others have upgraded their machines and then dedicate the old one to WCG. Keeping these machines out of the waste stream ought to be worth something. Maybe offsetting the electricity they use.
|
||
|
wcgridmember
Advanced Cruncher Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Post Count: 110 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
My point is: is it worth to get it done at all regardless of the societal costs?
Say 1.000.000 lives are saved through this work, but 5.000.000 die from the pollution and indirectly from the opportunity cost of the energy spent (I'm assuming these are the top 2 negative externalities). If this was the case, the conclusion would be very clear: Stop running WCGrid!!!... at least until the balance tips to the other side! No analysis, no transparency. No transparency, no trust (at least from me). |
||
|
Sgt.Joe
Ace Cruncher USA Joined: Jul 4, 2006 Post Count: 7547 Status: Recently Active Project Badges: |
Say 1.000.000 lives are saved through this work, but 5.000.000 die from the pollution and indirectly from the opportunity cost of the energy spent I think the answer to your question is not quantifiable at this point. It is similar to asking the question about whether it is better for society as a whole to spend $100,000 on a surgery for someone or to spend that money on 100,000 doses of a vaccine which will save 100,000 lives. We spend vast sums of money on non-essential medical procedures and yet we do not fund nearly enough on preventative measures. Just my opinion. Cheers
Sgt. Joe
*Minnesota Crunchers* |
||
|
nanoprobe
Master Cruncher Classified Joined: Aug 29, 2008 Post Count: 2998 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
My point is: is it worth to get it done at all regardless of the societal costs? Say 1.000.000 lives are saved through this work, but 5.000.000 die from the pollution and indirectly from the opportunity cost of the energy spent (I'm assuming these are the top 2 negative externalities). If this was the case, the conclusion would be very clear: Stop running WCGrid!!!... at least until the balance tips to the other side! No analysis, no transparency. No transparency, no trust (at least from me). If WCG upsets you so much then why are you here? Shut down and move on if what’s going on doesn’t fit into your box.
In 1969 I took an oath to defend and protect the U S Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and Domestic. There was no expiration date.
|
||
|
wcgridmember
Advanced Cruncher Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Post Count: 110 Status: Offline Project Badges: |
There's a similar analysis to be made: buying a guide-dog for a blind person or buying thousands of treatments to restore sight to thousands of people. The latter is clearly preferable. Your point is that we are usually egotistical and make our expenditures thinking much more about ourselves than the others. To me this is the biggest concern in the world (the source of Evil, one could say); egotism that serves inequality.
----------------------------------------UPDATE: If resources were shared evenly, and good institutions put into place, we would be able to afford those surgeries to the people needing them leaving no one behind. My point is: choices are not easy, but sometimes data might show that some choices are more easy than they seem. [Edit 1 times, last edit by wcgridmember at Jul 11, 2019 12:13:03 AM] |
||
|
|