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johncmacalister2010@gmail.com
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Re: HCC with GPU

I believe the energy efficiency on these new cards would pay off quickly running 24/7.


I am patiently waiting for the Beta WUs to come rolling out, together with the definitive list of GPUs. I will then see, bearing in mind the other GPU based projects I want to help process, and the GPU cost, which GPU I will buy. These GPUs can cost much more than a CPU. Being retired, acquisition and electricity costs will have a huge effect on my decision. sad In the meantime, I will continue crunching. FAAH turned silver overnight.... biggrin
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crunching, crunching, crunching.

AMD Ryzen 5 2600 6-core Processor with Windows 11 64 Pro.

AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor with Windows 11 64 Pro (part time)


smile
[Feb 15, 2012 2:23:36 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Dataman
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Re: HCC with GPU

Here's my opinion:
[humor]
I think everyone should recycle all their cards and immediately go purchase NEW, high-end, NVIDIA cards. Why? Because I own a small equity position at NVIDIA Corporation and your actions will cause the stock to rise. biggrin
[/humor]

Crunch on ...

cowboy
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[Feb 15, 2012 3:20:29 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
X-Files 27
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Re: HCC with GPU

Another thing to consider when choosing either NVidia or AMD is drivers stability. Stability VS Performance.

For those that hasn't crunch any GPU projects, these are the common issues we've encountered:
1) Driver crashing
2) GPUs are downclocking
3) Overheating
4) BOINC service install won't work under Vista/Win7
5) SLI? / Crossfire?
6) Mixed cards (Nvidia & AMD)
7) Mixed cards (Same manufacturer different model/series)

Get yourself informed on these so when it comes you're ready.
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[Feb 15, 2012 7:16:15 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: HCC with GPU

Get yourself informed on these so when it comes you're ready
Perhaps we should try to assemble a quick FAQ for new GPU crunchers?
Here's what I think I know, please correct me if I'm wrong.

3) Overheating
Overheating may be a more frequent problem with GPUs than with CPUs because
* mid-range and high-end GPUs draw a lot more power than a CPU, and more power equals more heat. (High-end CPUs may draw 90-130 W, while high-end GPUs are 250-350 W.)
* GPU and case cooling is frequently designed on the assumption that the GPU won't see high load over extended periods. This is true for normal desktop use, but not when you run a graphics card for 24/7 number crunching. (There are stories of people having their graphics card catch fire running Furmark. Furmark is a special case, nothing in the real world will load the card that much, but it illustrates the problem.)

What do do:
- Install a GPU temperature monitor. For Windows, MSI Afterburner is nice (and works even if you don't have a MSI card), there's also SpeedFan and a whole host of others. Linux has a few command line alternatives, e.g. nvidia-settings and sensors.
- Ensure sufficient case ventilation.
- Get a card with decent cooling. Check reviews, there will be a section where they test card temperatures under load.

This is not so much a concern with low-end graphics, since they don't generate that much heat in the first place. But for high-end graphics, and for laptops with discrete GPUs, I would install a temperature monitor.

4) BOINC service install won't work under Vista/Win7
This is a deliberate Windows policy: Services are not allowed to access the GPU.
AFAIK there is no way to override this. So you can either do GPU crunching or run Boinc as a service, but not both.

5) SLI? / Crossfire?
AFAIK SLI and Crossfire is irrelevant to Boinc, it will treat each card separately in any case.
In short, it doesn't matter.

6) Mixed cards (Nvidia & AMD)
From what I've seen on various forums, mixed cards are nothing but trouble. I would stay clear if I wanted hassle-free crunching. (Merely having mixed cards in the box shouldn't be an issue, but getting crunching to work on all of them simultaneously can be tricky.)

7) Mixed cards (Same manufacturer different model/series)
As above, except that cards in the same family / with the same architecture should be fine. I think issues tend to arise when the cards need different drivers.
As an example, I expect that I can mix Radeon 6950 and 6970 without issues, but wouldn't hold my breath for mixing 6950 and 7950.

Noise
GPU coolers can be rather noisy under load. On laptops the options are limited to non-existent, but on desktops there are a few alternatives if you care about noise:
- Check reviews before you buy, many reviews include noise tests.
- Get an aftermarket cooler. ( Example)
- A "ghetto mod", stripping off the casing and strapping on larger and quieter fans, may reduce the noise to almost zero. (Caveats: Probably voids the warranty, track the temps closely afterwards to ensure that it works as intended. Example)
[Feb 16, 2012 12:42:56 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Coleslaw
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Re: HCC with GPU

This is also a valuable resource. http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread_thread,32295

I'm still voting for a GPU forum option somewhere so it would be easy to consolidate threads.
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[Feb 16, 2012 2:19:26 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
kashie
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Re: HCC with GPU

High intensity ATI/AMD GPU projects such as MilkyWay@Home, Moo! Wrapper and Donate@Home may actually draw slightly more current on the core VRMs (VDDC) than Furmark. Furmark would possibly cause greater total rise in card heat because it stresses the memory as well, but those projects can still quickly burn out a card's VRMs if VRM temperatures are not carefully monitored.

When the VRMs get too hot, it is necessary to improve cooling and/or reduce application intensity with <cmdline> parameters. If this is not done and cards are operated with very high VRM temperatures then card life will be reduced and in the worst cases it can cause card failure in a very short time.

A few years ago I quickly discovered the cooling of my old case is insufficient to cope with GPU processing so I run with both case sides removed. On hot summer days I aim a 30cm floor fan at the GPU.

VRM temperatures can be too high even when GPU core temperature is within an acceptable range. Some cards are more prone to VRM overheating due to poor component placement/cooling design. The HD 5970 is one of those.

Some more recent GPU models have protection circuitry that detects excessive heat/current in a number of components and throttles the card. Earlier models may throttle the card only on GPU core temperature and high VRM temperature does not trigger the protection circuitry.

The current draw and heat produced in VRMs is a function of how hard the GPU is working not just GPU load percentage. For example two different applications on a Cypress core can have the same 99-100% GPU load and one application can draw 38W on VDDC and the other application draw 75W. The application with the 38W current draw would have no problem with VRM temps as long as the GPU core temp was within an acceptable range. However the application with 75W current draw could easily overheat the VRMs, even when GPU core temp was within acceptable range.

This is why keen ATI/AMD GPU crunchers usually monitor VRM temps as well as GPU core temps.

It is possible the VDDC current draw on a WCG HCC GPU application will not be very high and so these precautions may not be so important here and monitoring GPU core temp alone will be sufficient for most except perhaps for those with heavily overclocked GPUs.
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mikey
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Re: HCC with GPU

Get yourself informed on these so when it comes you're ready
Perhaps we should try to assemble a quick FAQ for new GPU crunchers?
Here's what I think I know, please correct me if I'm wrong.

5) SLI? / Crossfire?
AFAIK SLI and Crossfire is irrelevant to Boinc, it will treat each card separately in any case.
In short, it doesn't matter.


This is true but SOME Projects, Moo right now, use ALL cards by default on one workunit whether you use an SLI cable or not! As you said though in MOST cases an SLI cable is NOT beneficial. It IS helpful to use an SLI cable for gamers so if you game AND plan to crunch you will need to use some special instructions to stop the crunching while playing, or the game will crash! It CAN be done and works just fine!
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sk..
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Re: HCC with GPU

Good link coleslaw, and agreed on the GPU Forum...
Nice VRM/VDDC writeup kashie. Good to hear someone go beyond the GPU temps.

The HD 7750 looks like a good option for people with lesser PSU's; it won't need any extra power cables as it's only 75W (max). For crunching I would expect the quoted 55W to be correct for most projects and I doubt if any would go over 65W. In terms of value for money it also looks reasonable, but don't expect the performance of these cards to be immediately met by project apps; they may need to be honed.

If your PSU has a free 6pin power connector you might want the 7770. In terms of performance per monitory value and performance per Watt, this should slightly outperform the 7750 (by around 8% and 30% respectively). So it's worth the extra if your system can support it.

It's worth remembering that an HD 7970 has the same number of stream processors as two 7770's and a 7750 put together, but has a TDP of only 200W, so it's more efficient again. The problem is the expense and supporting a 200W GPU. Fortunately next month we will see two cards to fill the gap between the HD 7770 and the HD 7950; the 7870 and 7850... If anyone is considering two HD 7770's I suggest you wait a month - the 7850 (~$249) should be slightly more than twice as powerful as the 7770 but use slightly less than twice the power. A better buy in the long run. Partners might even be unleashed.

PS. Avoid the OEM 7000 series GPU's (7350 to 7670); these use 40nm Lithography.
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TXR13
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Re: HCC with GPU

4) BOINC service install won't work under Vista/Win7
This is a deliberate Windows policy: Services are not allowed to access the GPU.
AFAIK there is no way to override this. So you can either do GPU crunching or run Boinc as a service, but not both.

It amuses me every time I see this. To be fair, I agree that under MOST circumstances (certainly all circumstances regular crunchers will see), this is absolutely true.

However, while Windows was responsible for implementing Session 0 Isolation (which broke GPU availability while running as a service), NVIDIA and AMD are perfectly capable of working around this. NVIDIA has already done so using the TCC driver.

The TCC driver (Tesla Compute Cluster) is mainly available for the NVIDIA Tesla cards, but earlier versions also worked for regular NVIDIA cards (with a little tweaking of the driver INF files). There's a downside to this--the TCC driver makes ALL of the NVIDIA GPUs in a machine unavailable for any graphics use whatsoever. So to have any video on the machine, you'd need to either remote into it or have some sort of non-NVIDIA graphics to connect your monitor to the machine.

When I win the lottery, I plan to get a whole pile of the NVIDIA Tesla cards and install the TCC driver, just so I can use BOINC on my GPUs in service mode. laughing Of course, until that day, I'm going to stick with service mode and scratch the GPUs. All of my installations (except my personal desktop) must prioritize stability and service isolation above performance, so running in user mode is not an option for me.

Still, just goes to show you...if they want to get around it, GPU manufacturers can indeed work around Session 0 Isolation. But generally speaking, there's been no reason for them to do so except for very high-end products. Which I think is a crying shame. crying
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3A4scLiRhJVcdT2K9q9kQNxzxYJ9
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Re: HCC with GPU


It's worth remembering that an HD 7970 has the same number of stream processors as two 7770's and a 7750 put together, but has a TDP of only 200W, so it's more efficient again. The problem is the expense and supporting a 200W GPU. Fortunately next month we will see two cards to fill the gap between the HD 7770 and the HD 7950; the 7870 and 7850... If anyone is considering two HD 7770's I suggest you wait a month - the 7850 (~$249) should be slightly more than twice as powerful as the 7770 but use slightly less than twice the power. A better buy in the long run. Partners might even be unleashed.


Very interesting post there wink Maybe I want get one of the 7970 as they get a BIT cheaper. But I need to find a solution on the idea of having such a build run 24/7 or maybe have a standard CPU-build off the project. But in the end I think, that the efficency of the GPU-Card will make up for this big time. Prices may drop as Nvidia will come up with its new gen. Let's see if we have some GPU Apps here by then. smile
[Feb 16, 2012 9:51:26 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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