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sk..
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

skgiven Indeed you are correct on the if it's below zero it's still ice argument.
biggrin

However the question is why is the area around Baffin Island allegedly +10C above normal

Perhaps someone on Buffoon Island used their thermometer to stir their cup of tea smile in between commercial breaks, of course coffee


As the temperature cooled to below zero the area surrounding Baffin Island would take longer that its peers to reach zero and the size of the ice cover would suffer

Makes sense, but perhaps there was plenty of snow and drift ice came that way. Snow could be melting underneath, but from a satellite you couldn't really tell, unless they used IR - if they did they might have dismissed some results as being too far away from normal to be real. Scientists/statisticians do this all the time, its really just junk research because their methods are fallible.


You would also expect the North Pole to show earlier melting as the local temperature would get above freezing that much sooner (with a +10C offset)


It's still the coldest winter in 30 years here! March is about 2 degrees warmer than Jan on average, and this year is not average. I expect the North Pole is a bit chillier at this time of year. We will see in a month or three.

Perhaps the sea ice just melts really quickly, so a day or so difference would not be noticed?
Most of an ice berg is below the water, so how accurate can the measurements be from above the water???


The truth will win out in the end

Not so sure about that!
The inherent problem with science is that it tends to be introverted; not only does it miss the big picture, it misses other smaller pictures that are essential for a detailed understanding of the subject matter. Scientists tend to be dismissive of others work, so anyone that bucks the trend is an easy target - you know, people like Galileo, Newton, Darwin and Einstein... Unfortunately too many scientists try to paint a placid picture that fits some politically acceptable grand view of everything, instead of listing the facts and methods and letting people draw their own conclusions.
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

That stupid carbon tax plan is the same one that was bounced about by most governments. Its just a way of getting more money out of our empty pockets and crippling the economies further. They think that if they keep everybody busy trying to pay off the banksters people wont notice job cuts, pension theft, rises in tax, stealth taxes, government corruption and fraud.
They will be trying to tax oxygen next.

Dont give any ideas---Co2
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David Autumns
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

We are on the same hymn sheet skgiven

Keep watching that North Pole

Rest assured it's not just a wafer thin sheet the same size as last year.


and then there was this.....

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/looknorthyorkslincs/ahlbeck_solar_activity.pdf


Everything in Climate Science doesn't boil down to CO2


CO2 is a bit part player.

Water Vapour has most of the bases covered. Then throw in the Volcanic Particulates and SO2. Then throw in the Sun's Activity, Changes in Albedo, Cloud Cover, Ocean Currents and Jet Streams and it's a heady mix not to mention the inclination and orbit changes of our Planet over time.

To think that we can control all of this through the adjustment of a few parts per million of an essential for life gas that makes up just 0.0388% of the total atmosphere

is the greatest fantasy
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

CO2 is a bit part player.

Water Vapour has most of the bases covered. Then throw in the Volcanic Particulates and SO2. Then throw in the Sun's Activity, Changes in Albedo, Cloud Cover, Ocean Currents and Jet Streams and it's a heady mix not to mention the inclination and orbit changes of our Planet over time.



To think that we can control all of this through the adjustment of a few parts per million of an essential for life gas that makes up just 0.0388% of the total atmosphere



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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Mar 25, 2010 1:28:18 AM]
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sk..
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

I don't get that second graph at all. Perhaps a title and description would have helped!

To me that graph looks like it is made up of different places around the world at different time periods strung together in a way to make it look like there is a rise in CO2.
How can you justify using CO2 levels in Hawaii to extend the CO2 levels in the South pole (measured in a different way, at a different time by different people).
How come there is no South pole, Siple or Adelieland levels shown at the right end of the graph?
How come no Hawaii or Antarctica levels are shown at the start?

Cherry picked data like that in your non-sourced graph undermines real research.

If I looked around the globe for evidence of temperature levels over the last 2100 years I could paint any picture I wanted by cherry picking data. I could collect all the data that indicates we are heading for a snowball Earth and make graphs with that data only, excluding all the other data, or do the opposite; argue that the earth will burn up by 2200.
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

I don't get that second graph at all. Perhaps a title and description would have helped!

To me that graph looks like it is made up of different places around the world at different time periods strung together in a way to make it look like there is a rise in CO2.
How can you justify using CO2 levels in Hawaii to extend the CO2 levels in the South pole (measured in a different way, at a different time by different people).
How come there is no South pole, Siple or Adelieland levels shown at the right end of the graph?
How come no Hawaii or Antarctica levels are shown at the start?

Cherry picked data like that in your non-sourced graph undermines real research.

If I looked around the globe for evidence of temperature levels over the last 2100 years I could paint any picture I wanted by cherry picking data. I could collect all the data that indicates we are heading for a snowball Earth and make graphs with that data only, excluding all the other data, or do the opposite; argue that the earth will burn up by 2200.

It's ice core data and real time observed data. You can't measure ice core data of the present, and you can't get CO2 data pre 1960 at the Mauna Loa observatory because it didn't exist. One data set begins before the other ends, and they're ALL showing the same trend. I am not sure how one could believe data from 5 different sources showing the same trend is "cherry picking". Here's another one for you, strictly Mauna Loa. While CO2 may only constitute a portion of the atmosphere, there has been a huge increase in the concentration in the atmosphere.


http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2009/07/1...atmaunaloaobservatory.jpg
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sk..
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

Your interpretation of the graph obviously differs from mine.
I see a tread in the ice core measurements. They are all the same!

I also see a tread in the amount of CO2 on top of the Volcano; its rising, as is the volcano!

You can't measure ice core data of the present

You can measure Carbon amounts and proportionalities in last years snow fall; for 59 of the last 60years - but you chose to display a graph with cherry picked data from the top of a volcano!

Per chance did their measuring instruments improve in that time?
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retsof
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

http://www.grist.org/article/mauna-loa-is-a-volcano

Yes, it's true, Mauna Loa is an active volcano. In fact it's the biggest volcano on earth! So, should we suppose that Charles Keeling didn't know that?

Well, no, he did know it. And using subtle scientific indicators like "wind direction," he was even able to ensure that his readings were not contaminated by any out-gassing when it was occurring. OK, to be fair, it is not really always that simple; out-gassed CO2 can be carried far away on a favorable wind, only to return much later on an ill one. But really, these are clever people, these scientists, and while mistakes are made, they are not usually such simple ones.

A quick look at the actual levels recorded makes it pretty hard to believe there is any volcanic influence. We have a nice, slow, steady trend with a regular up and down seasonal variation. No spikes, no dips. Nothing random, as one would expect from an overwhelming volcanic influence. The record is here among other places.

But, OK, let's throw out Mauna Loa. There are dozens of other sampling stations scattered all over the globe, including one in the Antarctic, far from cities, SUVs, cement plants, and active volcanoes. It also shows the same rise, though the southern hemisphere tends to lag a few years behind the northern hemisphere, where the majority of the CO2 is produced. Here are eight others -- same results.

Sorry, its all of us Joes, not the volcanoes.
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[Mar 27, 2010 1:30:03 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
retsof
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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

See if there are any major CO2 differences caused by the volcano. Go ahead. Pick them out.

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Re: Not sure how much longer they will be able to keep crunching in the UK

http://www.grist.org/article/mauna-loa-is-a-volcano

Yes, it's true, Mauna Loa is an active volcano. In fact it's the biggest volcano on earth! So, should we suppose that Charles Keeling didn't know that?

Well, no, he did know it. And using subtle scientific indicators like "wind direction," he was even able to ensure that his readings were not contaminated by any out-gassing when it was occurring. OK, to be fair, it is not really always that simple; out-gassed CO2 can be carried far away on a favorable wind, only to return much later on an ill one. But really, these are clever people, these scientists, and while mistakes are made, they are not usually such simple ones.

A quick look at the actual levels recorded makes it pretty hard to believe there is any volcanic influence. We have a nice, slow, steady trend with a regular up and down seasonal variation. No spikes, no dips. Nothing random, as one would expect from an overwhelming volcanic influence. The record is here among other places.

But, OK, let's throw out Mauna Loa. There are dozens of other sampling stations scattered all over the globe, including one in the Antarctic, far from cities, SUVs, cement plants, and active volcanoes. It also shows the same rise, though the southern hemisphere tends to lag a few years behind the northern hemisphere, where the majority of the CO2 is produced. Here are eight others -- same results.

Sorry, its all of us Joes, not the volcanoes.

Thank you, sir.
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