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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Scientific research is inherently academic as are most scientific researchers; therefore its purpose is almost identical to its rationale/methodology: Hence the term “pure research.” This is where we get the stereotype of the “mad scientist” who is unable to avoid the “research compulsion” to achieve success regardless of the consequences either to him, or to the world. Of course, funding sources (and by implication intended future use); impact of prevailing academic environment (including bias, publication potential, internal politics, etc.); impact of prevailing legal and social environment (i.e., stem cell and cloning research); integrity of the research/researchers (i.e. recent cloning scandal in Korea); perceived potential market (uses for) research evidence that could enhance or jeopardize corporate and government agendas/interests; and so on, all factor into even the “purest research.” I spent a number of years as the buffer between academic scientists attempting to develop revolutionary in vivo medical diagnostic equipment and ethical committees, and can attest to the "Research Compulsion". The compulsion to develop the product because of the perceived gain for humanity as a whole to a degree blinded some of the scientists to the risks to the individual humans who would be part of any clinical trial. This is where I and the ethics committees came in, weighing legal, moral and ethical issues against the potenial gains and risks involved in any trial. As I intimated in an earlier post to the original thread, embryo based stem cell research is a thorny issue, as it involves the creation and destruction of human embryos. The potential benefits to humanity propounded by the scientists verge almost on the miraculous, but for governments to allow and, or fund this research they have to weigh the prevailing morality. So if you are a government whose philosophy is pro-life and anti-abortion, then by right of this philosophy you are unable to support said research. It actually takes quite a strong government to take the pragmatic position that although it will not fund the research because it breaches its own morality, it will allow the research to continue for the sake of humanity. Or taking the cynical point of view, a weak government to sell its soul to the devil inorder to keep its business buddies happy One problem that continually occurs is that scientific developments out strip the legal frame work, so we are continually playing catch in order to regulate the developments once the genie is out of the bottle. One only has to look at the issue of embryo selection to produce a child whose genetic material can be harvested to treat a sibling and the potenital slippery slope to 'designer babies'. Also laws and treaties can appear to be unfair and as a result get broken. For example take the current problems with Iran and their supposed attempts development of nuclear weapons. I say supposed because there is a high chance that the analysts who are saying this are the same ones who said similar things about Iraq. Taking a potential Iranian view point: what you have is a non-proliforation treaty which seeks to limit nuclear weapons to a select few. One of the few being a country that has invaded a neighbour, has caused you to loose face by citing you as part of an axis of evil, who you perceive to anti-Islam because of their right wing Christian credentials and their support of Israel. So why should you then not have access to the ulitmate deterent to your own country being invaded. An interesting footnote, is that the development of the nuclear bomb was accelerated as a result of what can be interpreted as faulty intellegence. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
I spent a number of years as the buffer between academic scientists attempting to develop revolutionary in vivo medical diagnostic equipment and ethical committees, and can attest to the "Research Compulsion". The compulsion to develop the product because of the perceived gain for humanity as a whole to a degree blinded some of the scientists to the risks to the individual humans who would be part of any clinical trial. This is where I and the ethics committees came in, weighing legal, moral and ethical issues against the potenial gains and risks involved in any trial. How true. The highly isolated and competitive nature of scientific research; strong pure academic/technical/scientific perspective; intra-specialty competitiveness; external pressures through funding considerations (often federal grants, etc.); all serve to seriously erode humanistic and ethical considerations. To watch the subtle power of inculcation and indoctrination of one's own family members as they go from being undergraduates to practicing physicians is an education in itself. As I intimated in an earlier post to the original thread, embryo based stem cell research is a thorny issue, as it involves the creation and destruction of human embryos. The potential benefits to humanity propounded by the scientists verge almost on the miraculous, but for governments to allow and, or fund this research they have to weigh the prevailing morality. So if you are a government whose philosophy is pro-life and anti-abortion, then by right of this philosophy you are unable to support said research. It actually takes quite a strong government to take the pragmatic position that although it will not fund the research because it breaches its own morality, it will allow the research to continue for the sake of humanity. Or taking the cynical point of view, a weak government to sell its soul to the devil inorder to keep its business buddies happy This assumes that they had a soul to sell in the first place. As we are witnessing today in America, the government usually adopts policies reactively as it is conservative by nature. For example, Bush's decision reflects the political power of C-PAC. Whether or not he personally shares these views is politically irrelevant. Again, the "government" did not outlaw the practice of discrimination, the Supreme Court did. Lincoln only changed the written law which mandated policies at the political/legal level. It took the Supreme Court to actually enforce it in the social and economic levels. No political "In" will voluntarily risk becoming an "Out" unless circumstances force them to make an unavoidable unpopular choice. In reality, the stage must first be made by the people by electing to public office those politicians who will then make this change "official" because it is in these politicians’ best vested interests to do so. And yes, I personally believe that for Nazi Germany, or the fall of the Iron Curtain to occur internally (sans other extreme external pressures), at least a large percentage (not necessary over 50%) of the citizens must proactively support the decision. (This does not apply to clearly third-world societies, for obvious reasons.) This explains why the Democrats had to be in office for the Civil Rights movement to occur. It also explains why Bush has to be in office before Roe vs. Wade could once again be challenged in the Courts. In both cases the government did not do the "right" thing. Politicians will always choose the politically expedient alternative. I am not implying that they are, or are not, inherently wrong or evil. I am simply stating that this is the course of action that political leaders follow, because that is the way politics/government works. If I do not see mounting popular support which is in the process of transforming itself into a grass-roots demand for action, I do not foresee major self-initiated political change in more developed countries. This is also exactly why I am so concerned about the recent changes in the US political landscape. C-PAC (the Christian-based Political Action Coalition) could not yet generate such support if it were not for their ability to ally themselves with otherwise sober voters who have no other viable political option as the opposition forces do not appear capable of providing a decisive and popular alternative agenda. Remember, you do not need over 50% to win an election. A highly motivated and organized three-of-a-kind will beat a complacent and fearful flush, every time. One problem that continually occurs is that scientific developments out strip the legal frame work, so we are continually playing catch in order to regulate the developments once the genie is out of the bottle. One only has to look at the issue of embryo selection to produce a child whose genetic material can be harvested to treat a sibling and the potential slippery slope to 'designer babies'. The only thing slippery about these issues is the ethics of the people who can not see straight through to the heart of the matter. It is exactly this kind of inability of scientists and politicians to make clear and appropriate humanistic distinctions which has the unfortunate effect of lending credibility to right-wing religious extremists as well as truly enlightened humanists. Also laws and treaties can appear to be unfair and as a result get broken. For example take the current problems with Iran and their supposed attempts development of nuclear weapons. I say supposed because there is a high chance that the analysts who are saying this are the same ones who said similar things about Iraq. Taking a potential Iranian view point: what you have is a non-proliforation treaty which seeks to limit nuclear weapons to a select few. One of the few being a country that has invaded a neighbour, has caused you to loose face by citing you as part of an axis of evil, who you perceive to anti-Islam because of their right wing Christian credentials and their support of Israel. So why should you then not have access to the ulitmate deterent to your own country being invaded. Let's explore this non-proliforation/Islamic-nationalism topic in separate posts, bb? We appear to have covered enough ground for several major topics in the last few posts already. An interesting footnote, is that the development of the nuclear bomb was accelerated as a result of what can be interpreted as faulty intellegence. As we all also know, my astute friend, the accelerated development of "the bomb" was the result of rather "serendipitous" faulty intelligence, this is true. But really, the development of this weapon, per se, was simply a function of an idea whose time had come. ![]() And yes, I am truly having fun now! ![]() [Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Jan 25, 2006 4:40:34 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
One problem that continually occurs is that scientific developments out strip the legal frame work, so we are continually playing catch in order to regulate the developments once the genie is out of the bottle. One only has to look at the issue of embryo selection to produce a child whose genetic material can be harvested to treat a sibling and the potential slippery slope to 'designer babies'. The only thing slippery about these issues is the ethics of the people who can not see straight through to the heart of the matter. It is exactly this kind of inability of scientists and politicians to make clear and appropriate humanistic distinctions which has the unfortunate effect of lending credibility to right-wing religious extremists as well as truly enlightened humanists. One thing that the UK government did to particularly well in this area was the setting up of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) to oversee, licence and supply guidance on any and all work involving human embryos and gametes. Since the HFEA not only looks into the efficacy of treatment and research, but also consults widely on the moral and ethical issues. This does however this does put the HEFA in an invidious position when it come to a few individual but highly publicised cases. However although it is part of the government, it is non-departmental and thus not directly accountable to ministers and Governmental interferance. Thus it is able in the most part produce balanced and appropriate guidance which has the effect of stifling all but the most extreme. For clarity I have deliberately used government with a small 'g' and a big 'G'. I shall endevour to explain. British parliament 101: Parliament is formed of two houses the upper house AKA the 'House of Lords' (unelected) and the lower house AKA the 'House of Commons' (elected). By custom and practice the majority party is asked by the reigning monarch to form the Government (note the big 'G'). It does this by assigning ministers to run each of the government (note the small 'g') departments. Ministers are drawn from either house but not from outside. A non-departmental government body is thus one that is part of the government (AKA the state)apparatus but out of the direct control of the Govenment (ruling politcal party) |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
For example, Bush's decision reflects the political power of C-PAC. Whether or not he personally shares these views is politically irrelevant. Again, the "government" did not outlaw the practice of discrimination, the Supreme Court did. Lincoln only changed the written law which mandated policies at the political/legal level. It took the Supreme Court to actually enforce it in the social and economic levels. No political "In" will voluntarily risk becoming an "Out" unless circumstances force them to make an unavoidable unpopular choice. In reality, the stage must first be made by the people by electing to public office those politicians who will then make this change "official" because it is in these politicians’ best vested interests to do so. This is true of post thatcherite british politics, where populism has taken over from conviction. This is evident in the way New Labour has shed its socialist convictions and has moved from the left to right of centre, and David Cameron looks to be moving the Conservative from their historic right wing conservative position to potentially left of centre. On upshot of this is reduced voter turn out. This is perceived by politicians as political apathy, however I see it not as lack of interest in politics, far from it, but as a disenchantment with the main political parties who are more interested in holding power through populism than advocating any particular philosophy or conviction. One only has to see the growth in single issue and extreme organisations and their increasing share of electoral vote. This situation opens the way for organised lobbying groups such as C-PAC to get more weight or credence for their aims than they truely deserve. It is interesting to note that the british politicans I admire are not necessarily ones whose views I agree with, but they are ones who have remained true to their convictions and appear to speak the truth as they perceive it, not as they think the populis want to hear it. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
This is true of post thatcherite british politics, ... Would you explain the meaning of “post thatcherite British politics”? From what I have surmised Thatcher was instrumental in turning the English economy around through: free markets, deregulation, increased corporate incentives, privatization, supply side economics, etc. It would appear, however, that there is more to your statement than just economics. On upshot of this is reduced voter turn out. This is perceived by politicians as political apathy, however I see it not as lack of interest in politics, far from it, but as a disenchantment with the main political parties who are more interested in holding power through populism than advocating any particular philosophy or conviction. One only has to see the growth in single issue and extreme organisations and their increasing share of electoral vote. This situation opens the way for organised lobbying groups such as C-PAC to get more weight or credence for their aims than they truely deserve. Specifically, what single-issue/extremist trends are you referring to? Do you Brits have some equivalent to our C-PAC? Lord, but I certainly hope not. It is interesting to note that the british politicans I admire are not necessarily ones whose views I agree with, but they are ones who have remained true to their convictions and appear to speak the truth as they perceive it, not as they think the populis want to hear it. It is unfortunate that strength of character and an intelligent political agenda are mutually incompatible on both sides of the puddle. Please bear in mind that for me these are not primarily "intellectually motivated" discussions, bb. The world is in transition. It appears to me to be the kind of "environment" that typically precedes watershed events. We need effective leaders. What we do not need are any more "white bread and sugar" professional politicians or resurgent religious extremists. It is also worth repeating. Family is often the one stabilizing force that a person can turn to in an oftentimes indifferent and hostile world. This is no less true for nations in a globalized world, than it is for individuals within a society. Yes, you are a Brit and I am an American. But harbor absolutely no doubts that I am every bit as English as any Brit or Aussie. My entire world view is shaped by virtually the same historic/cultural forces over which I have as little control as do you. We would both be incredibly stupid to squander such bonds as these. ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
This morning's news featured an interesting interview with a British journalist (it figures) who made the following excellent commentary.
----------------------------------------Isreal/America/Europe might want to revisit England's recent success in dealing with Northern Ireland. He suggested that the World may not wish to isolate and reflexively oppose Hamas. England, for example, used continuing dialogue and negotiations with the militiant extremists to bring these groups into the political mainstream. He added that the first step would be to make the demand that all overt hostile actions would not be tolerated. Isreal/America could then proceed with discussions from there. While he did not say this, undoubtedly he was aware that in some sense this election needs to viewed as a significant step towards peace. Hamas' agenda has always represented the majority opinion of Palestinians. This means that Isreal/America finally has the real "decision makers" at the table; not the stooges. If the real players are not part of the deal, there is no deal. No more of this rediculous: "we said, they said, you said ..." How can Hamas ever believe that their complaints have been heard if they never have had the opportunity to present and discuss them directly with their opponents? Isreal finally has the opportunity for a final and lasting peace for two reasons. It is finally negotiating with the only participants (Hamas) who can actually enforce a peace. (Since these are the same people who have been violating it). Second, Hamas is now the democratically elected representative government of the people of Palestine. Hamas is no longer able to act outside of the law with impunity. As the duly elected government they now have the responsibility to the people of advancing and protecting their best interests. If they do not succeed, then the same people who voted them into power will certainly vote them out. Without that core support, terrorism will collapse internally. There is no assurance that this strategy will work. Sometimes there simply are no good (peaceful) solutions. But this strategy does ensure that if some peaceful solution is indeed possible, that it actually can be found. We can all only hope so. ![]() As a postscript it occured to me that perhaps I should have made one point more explicit. Hamas acheived access to power through the Democratic process. Isreal/America may not like this, but we must respect it . We should verbally acknowldege it without rancor. The point is simple. Now that Hamas and the Palestinian people have accepted democratic government; so long as they remained committed to the democratic process, they have taken the only prerequisite step necessary for peace. Democracy works because, like the free market economy, that "invisible hand" will successfully guide it towards that end which best serves their own self-interests: productive, sustainable growth through co-operation and competition. ![]() [Edit 2 times, last edit by Former Member at Jan 26, 2006 2:31:19 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
This is true of post thatcherite british politics, ... Would you explain the meaning of “post thatcherite British politics”? From what I have surmised Thatcher was instrumental in turning the English economy around through: free markets, deregulation, increased corporate incentives, privatization, supply side economics, etc. It would appear, however, that there is more to your statement than just economics. I shall attempt to explain. Margaret Thatcher's removal as leader of the Conservatives, left a power vacuum, which lead to factional infighting and the subsequent inability of conservatives to win elections. Meantime the Labour party who had been suffering from an extreme left-wing 'the Looney Left' faction, had reorganised themselves with Tony Blair as their leader, ditched their socialist agenda for a populist one based on the output focus groups and rebranded themselves New Labour. We now see David Cameron attempting to do the same thing with the Conservatives. In both cases the parties have ditched their convictions in favour of populism. On upshot of this is reduced voter turn out. This is perceived by politicians as political apathy, however I see it not as lack of interest in politics, far from it, but as a disenchantment with the main political parties who are more interested in holding power through populism than advocating any particular philosophy or conviction. One only has to see the growth in single issue and extreme organisations and their increasing share of electoral vote. This situation opens the way for organised lobbying groups such as C-PAC to get more weight or credence for their aims than they truely deserve. Specifically, what single-issue/extremist trends are you referring to? Do you Brits have some equivalent to our C-PAC? Lord, but I certainly hope not. Of those which have got anywhere, we have a couple of independants in the House of Commons one being George Galloway, the other a doctor elected as a result of local healthcare issues. At a European level where the elections are proportional, we have UKIP (single issue anti-European Union), and at a local level where the constituencies are small and more focused the BNP (nationalist - Fascist) and a myriad of independents. No C-PAC (Yet) Please bear in mind that for me these are not primarily "intellectually motivated" discussions, bb. The world is in transition. It appears to me to be the kind of "environment" that typically precedes watershed events. We need effective leaders. What we do not need are any more "white bread and sugar" professional politicians or resurgent religious extremists. We are possibly witnessing a huge watershed event taking place in Israel, with the Palestinian elections and what is predicted as victory for Hamas. The Hamas leadership have been politically astute, on the one hand they have been fighting (from western eyes) a terrorist campaign whilst providing much of the social infrastruture (Schools, Hospitals etc) for Palestinians. The question is are they strong enough and astute enough to modify their postion on the existance of Israel, without upsetting their supporters, whilst at the same time opening the way for Western Governments to be more favourably disposed towards entering into open and public dialogue. I have not doubt that the British Government regardless of their public stance will be making contacts be it face to face or through intermediaries. The question is then what will Bush do? He is faced with a dilemma, on the one hand he openly positioned his administration as one which will not negotiate with terrorists, whilst on the other he championed the democratisation of the Middle East, and what he now has is the worst of all things democratically elected terrorists. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
...what he now has is the worst of all things democratically elected terrorists. Many governments get started this way... I know ours did. Remember, the democratic election process legitimizes. I wonder if the current US theocracy will recognize this or start throwing out labels like "evil empire" again! ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
I shall attempt to explain. Margaret Thatcher's removal as leader of the Conservatives, left a power vacuum, which lead to factional infighting and the subsequent inability of conservatives to win elections. Meantime the Labour party who had been suffering from an extreme left-wing 'the Looney Left' faction, had reorganised themselves with Tony Blair as their leader, ditched their socialist agenda for a populist one based on the output focus groups and rebranded themselves New Labour. We now see David Cameron attempting to do the same thing with the Conservatives. In both cases the parties have ditched their convictions in favour of populism. Hmmm, not exactly what I had expected, or had hoped to hear. This is going to require a bit more groundwork on my part. If any of our British members can provide an internet site that contains a sufficiently detailed and objective summary of these political events, it would be appreciated. The Hamas leadership have been politically astute, on the one hand they have been fighting (from western eyes) a terrorist campaign whilst providing much of the social infrastruture (Schools, Hospitals etc) for Palestinians. The question is are they strong enough and astute enough to modify their postion on the existance of Israel, without upsetting their supporters, whilst at the same time opening the way for Western Governments to be more favourably disposed towards entering into open and public dialogue. I have not doubt that the British Government regardless of their public stance will be making contacts be it face to face or through intermediaries. The question is then what will Bush do? He is faced with a dilemma, on the one hand he openly positioned his administration as one which will not negotiate with terrorists, whilst on the other he championed the democratisation of the Middle East, and what he now has is the worst of all things democratically elected terrorists. While serving in Vietnam, one night I was staring into the bush. My mind was in that peculiar exhausted place where the symbols of dreams not yet achieved, mesh with the loosened constraints of customary morality/logic still yet awake to the outside word. When it suddenly flashed into my consiousness that if this were my homeland, and I were looking at me; that I would have no choice but to be the very enemy which was now staring at me. Since then, when I hear reports about "the enemy" (bad guy) doing ostensibly good deeds for questionable purposes, I reflexibly get uncomfortable. (Not that this is what you are saying, bb. This is simply the slant that we in American hear from our journalists.) I wonder to myself: "Are these particular acts simply those of otherwise decent people, caught up in a history not of their own making, who are simply doing the "right thing" for their own people? Or is this simply politics as usual? Unfortunately, I simply do not know. None of this means that I sympathize with either the Palestinian position or their tactics. That is not the issue I am discussing. My only point is that it is much easier to see the bad guy as bad, then it is to see him as human. It would really be in Isreal/America's best interests if we could just see him for who he really is. If these are genuinely compassionately motivated behaviors, it makes a huge difference in determining the extent and depth of their long-term credility with their own people. This, in turn, might have a dramatic impact upon determining the most appropriate strategies for dealing with the situation. Like you I am very curious about what will happen next. Sharon was not only headed in the right direction; he had the juice to make it happen. This turn of events poses quite a challenge to a government without a duly elected leader who, unfortunately, was also the political/military agenda. So far, Bush has been fortunate to have been spared the uncertainty and anguish that faced his predecessors. It has only been in the last several years that Isreal has taken (been allowed to take?) firm unilateral action to resolve the situation in the manner of their own choosing. Bush has had to do nothing more than to stay quiet and let the participants (who know the situation best) work it out for themselves. My own hope is that he will continue to follow the same wise policy of simply staying out of it. ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
...what he now has is the worst of all things democratically elected terrorists. Many governments get started this way... I know ours did. Remember, the democratic election process legitimizes. I wonder if the current US theocracy will recognize this or start throwing out labels like "evil empire" again! ![]() You mean their not? ![]() Darned! Just when I thought it was safe to start polishing the nukes again. ![]() |
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