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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Neilsham, did you really say caffeine? Really?! You are obviously ADHD (at least at the intellectual level). Are you trying to mentally implode? laughing

Having just given your post a quick read, I must say that you make some good points worthy of an ongoing dialogue. It is also necessary (once again) to point out that most people do not prefer to have their salad, bread, meat, veggies, beverages and dessert tossed into a blender (along with the leftovers from last nights meal) and vigoursly tossed before being presented.

To a chef there are two components to preparing a great meal: preparation and presentation. They are both critical to the dining experience.

Can you imagine how frustrating it is for someone to try to pick out the pieces of each individual item? Good! Then we understand each other. praying
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Story from the BBC:

Anger grows over Muhammad cartoon
Protests have spread across the Muslim world over the publication in Europe of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4673908.stm

Anyone who believes that this infantile rage is religiously based is an idiot.

Anyone who believes that we should in any way acquiesce to this irrational emotional blackmail is a fool.

We absolutely must put an end to this insanity before this insanity puts an end to us. peace
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Good morning, ns & bb. hugs

Yesterday's post/catharsis left me drained and with a splitting headache, the residual effect of a nasty neck injury I sustained some years ago. So I must keep this short.
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So my friends, I look forward to continuing our discussions. For the time being, however, I will bid you adieu to see if I can somehow manage to OD on OTC analgesics and coffee. Thanks again for your thoughtful response, bb. coffee coffee

I find a couple of OTC analgesics, and laying down in a dark room with the radio on at such a low level that I have to concentrate does it for me smile

ns, how much of that caffine did you take? I must say, and please take it as a complement, your latest post was much more erudite and lucid though a little long, and I see you have found the Quote button biggrin

As jd put it 'preparation and presentation. They are both critical to the dining experience.' and it is always use to see quotes deliniated rather than getting half way through something only to find one is reading ones own words. Any way enough of this critique and onto a little substance.

To put my experiences of muslims and Islam into a little more context, the guys I work with come from the Indian Sub-continent, or are refugees from pre-revolutionary Iran and my travels in and through Islamic countries have been in the Far East. I have little to no direct experience of Islam in the Middle East.

The war against free speech is not threatned by islamists, but by the democracies' citizens that do not use it, and that will lose it.


I take that you actually mean "Free speech is not threatened by islamists, but by the democracies citizens that do not use it, and that will lose it." or "The war against free speech comes not from islamists, but from the democracies' citizens that do not use it, and that will lose it." (Oh the joys of the English Language). In which case I would put it slightly differently particularly in given the current legislative situation in the UK.

"Free speech/Freedom is not threatened by islamists, but by the the leaders of democracies in response to islamic extremism."

First we had New Labour's 'Racial and Religious Hatred Bill' which if the Lord had not amended it and the Commons voted to keep the amendments would have drasticaly curtailed peoples right to criticize other beliefs.

Next up we have the anti-terrorism bill, which will, if passed will curtail our right to express views of understanding of Terrorists lest we glorify them. This has given rise to what is referred to as the 'Mandela Measure', and from this what can only be described as the 'Thought Police', a section of government devoted to deciding who will be on the good guy list and can be praised and glorified and who wont.

Under the proposed bill my statement from a previous post:

Our viewpoint in Europe is shaped by our history, and whilst we in Britian were not occupied during WWII we played host to many whose countries were. As result we can understand some of what drives the Palistians.


could see me potentially held for 28 days (the Government wanted 90) with out charge. As it could be construed that I was gorifying the actions of terrorists.

Unfortunately these erosions come piecemeal and are not normally so blatant, and it is not till later and much to late that we realise what we have lost. sad

Here the US has the advantage over the UK in that such legistation can be overturned as being unconstitutional by the judiciary in the US, whereas in the UK we have to wait for a sympathic government to repeal or amend it. Having said that we do have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights, which can ask/force the government to amend legislation.
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

In case you missed it, this comment was written by one of our fellow North African cruchers who lives in a Muslim culture.

"The war against free speech is not threatned by Islamists, but by democracy's citizens that do not use it; and [thus] will lose it. And this time, there will be no Renaissance 2.0 and no (re)French (re)Revolution, because oppressive regimes have learned so much from the past that it is very unlikely [that] they [will] commit stupid errors like visible persecution and inquisition, dramatic genocides, or naive censorship [that would expose them]. We really [live] in the age of illusion. Worse than lies ... devilish ..."

This comment is simply too pertinent to risk being lost in a longer post. applause
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Story from the BBC:

Anger grows over Muhammad cartoon
Protests have spread across the Muslim world over the publication in Europe of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4673908.stm

Anyone who believes that this infantile rage is religiously based is an idiot.

Anyone who believes that we should in any way acquiesce to this irrational emotional blackmail is a fool.

We absolutely must put an end to this insanity before this insanity puts an end to us. peace


Well (here I go again straight face ) there are a number of views to this and I take that of editors from the British press who were speaking on the radio this lunch time.

Firstly, the the reaction to the orginal publication was infantile and exposes the insecure nature of the Islamic extremistists religious beliefs. If they felt insulted they could simply have ask for an apology, instead they went for violent protest, withdrawal of ambassadors and boycotts of Danish goods.

Secondly, given the reaction to the initial publication the action of the German, Italian, Dutch and Spainish press was just as infantile and borders in incitement. Goading muslims into an extreme response, just so that they can cry foul.

Claiming that they had a right and a need to do so in order to protect free speach is a load of tosh.

Thirdly, the actions of the German press are some what hypocritcal, as if the cartoons had been against Judaism, they might well have been prosecuted under German law for being anti-semitic.

I have just watched the German publisher squirming in his seat on this one when confronted by a British reporter. It was quite comical watching a stoney faced German attempt defend two diametrically opposed positions.

Fourth, you don't have to republish the cartoons, there are other ways to protest in the name of free speach against the reaction to the initial publication.

It is interesting to note that this evening there are reports that a Jordanian publicationhas reproduced the cartoon, but in what context I am not certain.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Former Member at Feb 2, 2006 7:14:18 PM]
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Anyone who believes that we should in any way acquiesce to this irrational emotional blackmail is a fool.

I am going to go off on a slight tangent here, but its nagging me.

Irrational emotional blackmail is not the sole province of the Umma. Back in 1995 I was staying in my second home in the Philippines, the issue of the time was Flor Contemplación and I was there to witness the events on the ground. What the Wikipedia entry fails to record is the irrational nature of what went on in the Philippines. Violent attacks on Singaporean nationals and others who looked like they might be Singaporean, the destruction of Singaporean owned businesses and attacks on the Singaporean embassy. In heated discussion with family and friends who all supported the action and believed her to be innocent without question or evidence, they were unable comprehend that through these actions they were only serving to ensure the execution was carried out. I am in no position to comment on the truth of the case only God and Flor can do that, but the film about her life holds her up to be a martyr.
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Anyone who believes that we should in any way acquiesce to this irrational emotional blackmail is a fool.

I am going to go off on a slight tangent here, but its nagging me.

Irrational emotional blackmail is not the sole province of the Umma. Back in 1995 I was staying in my second home in the Philippines, the issue of the time was Flor Contemplación and I was there to witness the events on the ground. What the Wikipedia entry fails to record is the irrational nature of what went on in the Philippines. Violent attacks on Singaporean nationals and others who looked like they might be Singaporean, the destruction of Singaporean owned businesses and attacks on the Singaporean embassy. In heated discussion with family and friends who all supported the action and believed her to be innocent without question or evidence, they were unable comprehend that through these actions they were only serving to ensure the execution was carried out. I am in no position to comment on the truth of the case only God and Flor can do that, but the film about her life holds her up to be a martyr.

Far from tangential, bb, this account is very much to the point. In fact a comparison of the two examples is extremely informative.

The most significant and obvious difference is in the goal, or aim of these behaviors. In the Flor Contemplacion incident, what occurred was a spontaneous irrational projection and subsequent acting out of widespread national repressed feelings of insecurity, powerlessness and vulnerability - a catharsis, as it were. There was no premeditated purpose or specific goal for which this behavior was "manufactured" to achieve.

The case is far different for these Islamic extremists. While in both cases there are widespread and pervasive dystonic feelings, this and "scapegoating" are the only characteristics which these two examples share in common. The Muslim reaction to the cartoon is purposeful. It is evoked specifically for the manipulative purpose of coercing other individuals and governments from speaking freely and openly. (Let's not forget that any sane person could easily see that the cartoon itself was only a joke.) Furthermore, the Muslim believes that the publishing of this cartoon is a sin because his religion demands that he does. He is also taught to believe that anyone who freely expresses such negative views must either be converted or destroyed. Finally, he is given "the sacred duty," as a Muslim, to act as judge, jury and executioner.

True? Of course it's true. They are screaming it from the windows of the passenger jet as it slams into buildings slaughtering thousands of innocent people.

This Muslim reaction is a learned response. It is a contrived emotional posture that is consciously evoked for the specific purpose of intimidating anyone who does not speak, believe and behave as demanded. This is nothing more than fascism dressed in religious garb. It will never stop until the world finally says, "That is quite enough." Good Lord, I would have thought that Europe, especially, would have remembered the dreadful price that is paid by placating tyrants.

While I appreciate your defense of the individual person rose , Muslim, Jew, Christian or Janist, bb, you may unwittingly be defending an extremely destructive and brutally repressive institution. Yes, I understand that there may well be a mainstream Muslim community that should not be lumped together with fanatics who terrorize in their name. But it is their responsibility, and there's alone, to immediately and completely separate themselves from this reign of terror. The world must act very soon. This reign of intimidation and mass murder has gone on far too long already.

Frankly, I am very disappointed that our world is so blind, so frightened and so apparently incapable of telling black from white, that we are actually apologizing to these psychopaths.

These Muslim extremists may be criminally insane, but we are worse: We are licensing them. talk to the hand
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

This Muslim reaction is a learned response. It is a contrived emotional posture that is consciously evoked for the specific purpose of intimidating anyone who does not speak, believe and behave as demanded. This is nothing more than fascism dressed in religious garb. It will never stop until the world finally says, "That is quite enough." Good Lord, I would have thought that Europe, especially, would have remembered the dreadful price that is paid by placating tyrants.

While I appreciate your defense of the individual person , Muslim, Jew, Christian or Janist, bb, you may unwittingly be defending an extremely destructive and brutally repressive institution. Yes, I understand that there may well be a mainstream Muslim community that should not be lumped together with fanatics who terrorize in their name. But it is their responsibility, and there's alone, to immediately and completely separate themselves from this reign of terror. The world must act very soon. This reign of intimidation and mass murder has gone on far too long already.

Frankly, I am very disappointed that our world is so blind, so frightened and so apparently incapable of telling black from white, that we are actually apologizing to these psychopaths.


Sometimes I think thats it they have gone too far, go for the nuclear option, kill the lot of em, wipe Islam off the face of the Earth, and then I think of people I went to school and Polythechnic with, worked with, and have stayed with on my travels decent hardworking people. So I tone it down and think well just kick them out the country, and then I think of people who I consider friends, Iranian exiles, where would they go not to any Islamic state that is for certain. confused

However in the UK at least I hope we are moving forward, and attempting to address the issue. We are starting to see the moderate community leaders and even muslim politicians coming forward and speaking openly, though the air time they are given by the media is still substantially less than that give to the fanatic. Local English speaking Imams are being trained and being given an understanding of British culture - this has come from within the Islamic community which in my mind is a healthy sign. Meantime the government is bringing in legislation to ensure all religious preachers and teachers that come to work in the UK at the very least speak English. Maybe this is too little too late, but it is a delicate balancing act if we are not to destroy the very things we hold so dear and are trying to protect.
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

IF the countries and nations would prioritate HIV/AIDS, extremly poorness, chronical hunger and so on instead of making war and bombs and weopons, the world would be greater, therefor, i am pacifist.

That is the most important thing with economy, prioritate the important questions, and throw the weopons..
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Re: Contemporary Issues in Economics, Politics and Religion

Having gone to bed depressed about the whole matter sad sleep

I awoke this morning to a perfectly reasoned debate, which raised some good points and put me in a better mood for the day smile

Sadly I missed the participants names and can find no link to a transcript or an audio stream. Suffice to say one was a spokesperson from a muslim organisation (which I don't know) and the other a writer (white?, presumably christian, but who has written items which some sections of the christian community consider offensive). Both condemed the irrational imoderate reaction in parts of the Muslim community but not measured peaceful protest. The Muslim spokesperson went on to condem both the re-publication of the Cartoons (the initial publication being taken as a mistake that had been apologised for) and the publication of Cartoons in the ME press which are offensive to Christians and Jews. applause

Also both questioned the actions of the German, Dutch, French and Spanish publications. The original Danish publication of the cartoons happened months ago and the whole situtation had been more or less resolved only to be stirred up again. These re-publishers claim it is the defence of free speech but what neither of the speakers knew (as don't I) is the political agenda of the publications. It is one thing for a publication whose ethos is liberal, to print them as part of an ongoing campaign for free speech, it is another for a xenophobic publication with a racist agenda to publish them as incitement and then hide behind the cause of free speech. thinking

But the more thought provoking point that was agreed upon was the dichotomy of the situation. I don't know if this exists in the USA, but the general concensus here is that it is offensive for white comedians to make jokes at the expense of blacks, christians about jews, able bodied about disabled and vice versa. Thus comedians perform a degree of self censorship and if they do cause offence it is considered (except amongst the most extreme) reasonable to apologise. Yet when these cartoons cause offence to muslims which they obviously have (though alot of what is being said and done is a conditioned extreme response by people who don't even know where Denmark is, let alone have seen the cartoons to judge for themselves), it is seen as a curtailment of Free Speech for the Danish Publication and Danish Prime minister to apologise for the offense caused. thinking

Also pointed out (by both parties) was that this conditioned irrational and uninformed response - though not always as violent - is also evident in other faiths. The examples given being: The Life of Brian, The Last Temptation of Christ , Behzti (Dishonour) and Jerry Springer the Opera. thinking

The conclusion they reached which I hope we can all agree on, is that we should not confuse the sentiment and the reaction, and that we should all accept the one and condem and actively protest the other. hugs
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As a footnote: This lunchtime's news was wall to wall muslim leaders calling for any protests at the publication of the cartoons to be moderate and peaceful and denouncing the rhetoric and actions of the extremists. smile
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