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World Community Grid Forums
Category: Support
Forum: Suggestions / Feedback
Thread: Why are badges based on time rather than work done? |
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Thread Status: Active Total posts in this thread: 37
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KLiK
Master Cruncher Croatia Joined: Nov 13, 2006 Post Count: 3108 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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BTW, did you reveal yourself & those 101d in a day?   I only wish for more $$ so I could expand my small farm.All mine are in my 10 x 18 man cave.   Is that in feets or in meters?   ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by KLiK at Dec 18, 2017 6:39:06 AM] |
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KLiK
Master Cruncher Croatia Joined: Nov 13, 2006 Post Count: 3108 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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@MG
----------------------------------------So you think that giving away badges for time participation is bad. Well, it all comes down to: 1. giving away electricity, as that's the thing running the computer (in time equivalent) 2. lending your hardware to do the job. When you think that way, then you can see why giving away badge for time participation 'cause it's the only thing that matters. I live in EU, not top of the line country, but have more than some people in Africa, most of Asia & S.America - but still less then US, Australia, most of EU & Tigers from Asia. We all donate, what we can. For example I run 4x computers & 1x Android 24/7, to get to my badges. & there are plans to hunt more badges with future Workstation buy-out. Some people invest in server time from Google, Amazon, Intel or Azure (Microsoft)? Also those investments are run in days, not GFLOPs or any other type of measurement. Yes, it's nice to have newer equipment & you'll run those WUs more quickly. But don't have compensation for it, unless you account Gridcoins! I do it, 'cause I can. & spend ridiculous amount on electricity compared to my friends. & that electricity is measured in kWh, so again spent time. But I still do it! If you check my signature, you'll see that I'm in top10 in my country of 5 million residents. Not a bad result, as the number 1 is a hospital smaller city of Croatia! How to compete with institution?! It is, how it is here. Everybody counts here! & those interested in most WUs & bigger RAC, those people can measure something else for themselves, like the top ranks in WCG. |
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wolfman1360
Senior Cruncher Canada Joined: Jan 17, 2016 Post Count: 176 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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The main reason I crunch WCG is because it doesn't use GPU.
----------------------------------------I folded forever. But, as the OP has, for instance, multiple gtx 1080s and multiple top of the line CPUs,, how am I supposed to remotely compete with that with my puny little transformer book and 8 core android device? At least with WCG, I can have similar badge results even if my points a day aren't remotely close to yours. The thing to remember here is competing by points is nice for those that can afford top of the line machines. Not so much for those that still run 1st or 2nd gen i series. And, as someone else mentioned, electricity costs. At least I'm contributing - isn't that what counts, really? 50 computers with older gen hardware running WCG vs. 10 newer machines contributes more overall in my view.
Crunching for the betterment of human kind and the canines who will always be our best friends.
AWOU! |
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Michael Goetz
Cruncher United States Joined: Dec 11, 2017 Post Count: 35 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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At least with WCG, I can have similar badge results even if my points a day aren't remotely close to yours. The thing to remember here is competing by points is nice for those that can afford top of the line machines. That's kind of the point I was trying to make in my OP. Remember, I'm asking the question from a project administrator's perspective, not as a user. If you're running a project, who do you want connecting to you? They guys who (somehow) spend thousands of dollars on hardware and probably even more on electricity? Or the people with more modest capabilities? Of course, there's a lot more "normal" computers out there than "enthusiast" computers, so perhaps that's the answer. On the other hand, from the project's perspective, making participants want to upgrade their hardware isn't a bad thing either. :) And, as someone else mentioned, electricity costs. At least I'm contributing - isn't that what counts, really? 50 computers with older gen hardware running WCG vs. 10 newer machines contributes more overall in my view. I wanted to comment on that. From a "save the planet" perspective, you actually want the latest generation hardware running, not the old stuff. Each successive generation of hardware is significantly more power efficient than the last. This holds true no matter what type of device you're talking about, whether it's a desktop, laptop, GPU, phone, or tablet. An old laptop may do one tenth the work of a latest generation laptop, yet draw more power. In the long run, you probably are paying more for electricity than you are for the computers, so running 50 old computers is actually more expensive than running those 10 new hot rods. The new computers will pay for themselves in lower energy costs. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
I understand what you're saying about "serious" crunchers, and if that's what your project is looking for, then fine. But WCG was and is about "citizen science". To include anyone and everyone, big and small. That, I assume, is why there is a slightly different philosophy. Decide on your approach and just go for it. I don't think anyone will criticise you, especially after all the trouble you've been through to air the arguments.
Good luck! |
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enels
Senior Cruncher Joined: Apr 25, 2008 Post Count: 286 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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I wanted to comment on that. From a "save the planet" perspective, you actually want the latest generation hardware running, not the old stuff. Each successive generation of hardware is significantly more power efficient than the last. This holds true no matter what type of device you're talking about, whether it's a desktop, laptop, GPU, phone, or tablet. An old laptop may do one tenth the work of a latest generation laptop, yet draw more power. In the long run, you probably are paying more for electricity than you are for the computers, so running 50 old computers is actually more expensive than running those 10 new hot rods. The new computers will pay for themselves in lower energy costs. We also have to consider the energy costs of designing and making the device in the first place. I use 10 kWh multiplied by the cost of the device in US dollars. I have a $100 tablet that I guestimate required 1000 kWh to produce. It doesn't produce a lot so I'm hoping it will last 10 years. A $2000 device I guestimate would take 20,000 kWh to produce. Much of the research and development money is paid for by the cutting edge devices. As I understand it. A $2000 device may produce so much more than the $100 device it pays for itself sooner. Or maybe not than someone who buys $200 tablets for the next 10 years. I don't know how good my guestimate is, and devices have other uses than only running the WCG, so it is hard for me to determine what devices are more energy efficient in the long run. At any rate I don't think the WCG is particularly interested. They don't talk about processor efficiency. |
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Michael Goetz
Cruncher United States Joined: Dec 11, 2017 Post Count: 35 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Good luck! Thanks! |
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Coleslaw
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Mar 29, 2007 Post Count: 1343 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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Looks like WCG has 8 times the active users that PrimeGrid has
----------------------------------------https://boincstats.com/en/stats/11/project/detail/user https://boincstats.com/en/stats/15/project/detail/user So, if you look at it realistically a large number of the PG users are also active WCG users. Many of whom that are probably running the CPU's at WCG and GPU's at PG. Some of which of course switch the CPU's back and forth. However, WCG still appeals to more people and gets those resources too. As a system administrator you may be thinking you are encouraging people to make smarter decisions. That may be partially true. But what you are really doing is segregating yourself from the masses and potentially pushing everyone away like they aren't important. I will decide if it isn't worth running my hardware. And upgrading systems with each generation is never going to pay for itself in electric for the majority of the world contributing. Long term it may but then you are crossing several generations of hardware to do it. And with every generation someone like you comes along and tells people how dumb they are for not upgrading to the next. That is an endless up front cost that never gets reclaimed and is a luxury to those with a lot of disposable income or those who don't mind selling the parts regularly. Most people buy a rig and use it for several years. Most DC'ers don't have more than a box or two running. Also, don't forget that PG's apps are typically optimized to utilize the newer hardware. WCG's applications typically are not due to the scientists not compiling them to do so... :(     [Edit 1 times, last edit by Coleslaw at Dec 29, 2017 10:29:47 PM] |
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widdershins
Veteran Cruncher Scotland Joined: Apr 30, 2007 Post Count: 677 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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I think there's another point to consider. You may see it as some kind of competition between projects, and to a degree it probably is, but whether you are crunching here, or one of the other science projects, you are still contributing to the betterment of mankind. So I don't see it as a competition for hardware.
I started crunching here before the advent of badges, and I gave what I could with the equipment I had. I chose here because of the respected name of the backers, IBM. I could rely on my computer not being infested with malware, or used for research to benefit of a big corporations profits, or to find little green men. I get a range of different science projects I can pick from, set my own goals, and don't get made to feel inferior because my hardware isn't bleeding edge costing thousands. The badges are nice, and yes I do try to hit personal goals but they are not necessarily badge related. In addition, you seem to think that everyone will upgrade their hardware to compete, I think you have a self-reinforcing hypothesis there. Your reward structure is set up to encourage regular upgraders, so you find that most contributors upgrade regularly to compete. But how many are put off and have just gone somewhere else instead? How many potential contributors have you lost that you are unaware of? They won't show as not upgrading regularly as they will have just left. As an example of what I mean I used to donate my GPU to GPU Grid as there were no projects here doing GPU crunching. Then one day my GPU wasn't deemed powerful enough to be allowed to do work on GPU grid. Did I immediately rush out to obtain the latest and most expensive NVIDIA card on the market to be allowed back into the exclusive club? Nope, I just stopped crunching for GPU Grid. |
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KerSamson
Master Cruncher Switzerland Joined: Jan 29, 2007 Post Count: 1684 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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I completely agreed with widdershins statement.
----------------------------------------On my side, I do replace hardware only than the previous hardware becomes out of life, and it takes long because I use to maintain and to clean my hosts. For example, here are my current machines:
From time to time, one of the Athlon II x4 experiences some troubles (invalid results) and it is the next one on the list to be replaced (probably with a Ryzen 7 1700). However, I would really appreciate that, within WCG, the projects would grant credits equally, since there is some huge differences between the projects and I am still not sure what the real causes are:
Such inconsistencies are annoying. Cheers, Yves |
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