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Thread Status: Active Total posts in this thread: 32
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twilyth
Master Cruncher US Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Post Count: 2130 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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There are a lot of things that aren't "the worst" but that seems to be the standard by which most things are judged here at WCG.
----------------------------------------Of course considering the fact that the value of IBM stock has fallen about 20% over the past year, maybe "not being the worst" is the best they can manage. ![]() ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Twilyth, I'm chuckling at the thought that the IBM logo here would be interpreted by anyone as meaning some sort of "higher standard". Often times these two and three letter bastions of computing history have some of the worst examples for infrastructure in the industry. Running this forum to some sort of higher standard could be an expectation that is never realized.
I'm not discounting anyone's desires for a better forum, but also would not be holding my breath in expectation. |
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jonnieb-uk
Ace Cruncher England Joined: Nov 30, 2011 Post Count: 6105 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Nothing I post in this forum should ever be interpreted as criticism of individual members of the WCG tean. Keith Uplinger, and previously Kevin Reed, have been outstanding in their technical support of the project whilst Ericka and Tedi cannot be faulted on their Admin work.
----------------------------------------Criticism is directed squarely at IBM from which resources and staff for the WCG project derive. In his post abpve David Autumns one of the First 5,000 to sign up for WCG, and a regular contributor to the Forum, makes many excellent points, chief amongst them: IBM is IBM and could never understand the emotional attachment we have to contributing to the research and science hosted here Being told that as volunteers we are 'esteemed' and that our contributions are 'valued' is not enough. What is wanted is engagement! Time and again Project Updates and information posts by Scientists attract scores of well informed comments and questions. Why can't WCG take note and do the same. The much trumpeted rethink on communications policy has produced just 2 "Behind the Scenes" articles with no opportunity for follow up questions or discussion. The ideal place to start rectifying WCG's lack of engagement with the volunteers would be to make Q&A session with the WCG team, offered to the winners of the "Decade of Discovery Recruitment Challenge" open to all. See some suggested questions here Jen Crozier VP, IBM Global Citizenship and with oversight responsibilty for WCG has tweeted her support for the statement Engaged employees produce 2x as much work product as unengaged employees. Why should the same not be true for WCG volumteers? |
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twilyth
Master Cruncher US Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Post Count: 2130 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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The fact of the matter is that IBM doesn't have the vision, desire or ability to engage a modern audience. Their corporate culture is one based on high margins from milking a captive audience. I saw this when I was a mainframe programmer and I doubt things have changed.
----------------------------------------But times have changed, it's just that IBM is incapable of comprehending this. They have been outclassed by rivals in both the hardware and software businesses - companies that have offered a better product at a lower price. The world of IT has become a much more competitive arena over the past 30 years and IBM has repeatedly failed to adapt. Instead they attempted to inflate their stock price by borrowing money to buy back stock, but in the end, even that couldn't help them. The only thing IBM has going for it right now is Watson. And while that has the potential to be a huge success if properly managed, they have no shortage of competition in the area of data analytics. The point is that IBM doesn't seem to learn from its mistakes so it's not too surprising that they would treat the people who volunteer here much like they used to treat clients who used their hardware - it's our way or the highway. And while that may fly with people like those of us who frequent this forum, it has no chance whatsoever of flying with any new people WCG hopes to attract. ![]() ![]() [Edit 1 times, last edit by twilyth at Jan 8, 2015 9:03:58 PM] |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
...and this type of "engage, communicate and involve us" need is not limited to this situation. The parallels here with this situation are eerily similar to what many Folders have said about the Pande Group that runs Folding@Home.
As Folders, we tried (for many years) to get the Pande Group to engage us more often, listen to the donors, you name it. In the end, it was a long exercise in futility and went nowhere. Just because it is IBM, the Pande Group, you pick it, it doesn't mean that you will get the treatment you would like to see (that arguably is reasonable). IMO, you are very likely to experience the concerns that I'm reading here. My advice...get over it, donate and find other more fruitful things that you can actually affect with some positive feedback. The best things about these forums is actually the people (the donors). |
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twilyth
Master Cruncher US Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Post Count: 2130 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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IMO, you are very likely to experience the concerns that I'm reading here. My advice...get over it, donate and find other more fruitful things that you can actually affect with some positive feedback. The best things about these forums is actually the people (the donors). So your solution is to just give up? Well, as it turns out, that's precisely what many people have done over the past couple of years. You only need to look at the active member stats to see that. So volunteers have already been taking this advice to heart since 2012. LOL. Personally, I hope to see more people take that advice as WCG's apparent tone deafness persists. That was the only thing that even prompted a response from IBM back in 2013. But judging from how they've handled their actual businesses over the years, they don't have the ability to respond to change. So in the best case, what will happen is we get another round of "improvements" to the website which no one will actually care about and people will continue to abandon the project anyway. The phrase "you can't fix stupid" comes to mind but that's not completely fair. IBM can do amazing things on the tech side. What they don't seem to be capable of is relating to the actual humans to whom they're trying to market - whether that target audience is clients of their business or WCG volunteers. Personally I think they take some perverse pride in this thinking that technical proficiency will more than compensate for their numerous other failings. Unfortunately that's not how the world works. ![]() ![]() |
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jonnieb-uk
Ace Cruncher England Joined: Nov 30, 2011 Post Count: 6105 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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that's precisely what many people have done over the past couple of years. You only need to look at the active member stats to see that. Global Statistics shows total members 688,500 but ~579,000 of them have crunched 1 years Runtime or less; ~390,000 of them 90 days or less. Currently ~55% of WCG's daily output is contributed by just 4.999 users with the user IBM accountting for a further ~14%. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
So your solution is to just give up? Well, as it turns out, that's precisely what many people have done over the past couple of years. You only need to look at the active member stats to see that. So volunteers have already been taking this advice to heart since 2012. LOL. I offered no solution because I've been there and done that (with Folding). In the end, the small percentage of people that actually allowed these things to bother them was not large enough to convince the "powers that be" to change anything. There was a very vocal majority of people willing to speak up, suggest improvement, etc, etc. But in the end no real change was affected, the energy was wasted and nobody really cared if that vocal majority went away or stayed. This situation is almost a "mirror image" of what we saw with Folding. So, my solution is to not allow myself to get caught up in whether IBM, the Pande Group or any other governing entity of DC donors is meeting my expectations. You can drive yourself nuts with this stuff and in the end change nothing is all that I'm saying. I'm no quitter, but I do know that certain battles are not likely to be winnable and thus are not worth the wear and tear. Good luck to you though. |
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twilyth
Master Cruncher US Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Post Count: 2130 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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I have no illusions about comments on the forum having any direct effect. I seriously doubt that anyone from IBM even visits here. And from WCG's perspective, so few users come here that they don't even consider what we say vaguely representative of the larger user pool. In fact I believe some of the staff here have, at various times, actually made observations consistent with that sentiment.
----------------------------------------So from the point of view of any comments made here having an actual effect, you're absolutely right. That's unlikely at best. But so what? WCG is still a reflection on IBM. That's something that they might eventually realize. Were that not the case, they wouldn't have even made the effort to conduct the 2013 survey. They saw the long, steady decline in active users and decided that wasn't acceptable. And while IBM as a company is doing so poorly now that there is virtually no chance that they will sink any additional capital into WCG, that could eventually change. If it does, they might actually make some effort to bring the site into the 21st century, but do I think that will happen any soon? Absolutely not. It seems like your experience with F@H was the result of the fact that there was a sharp division of opinion regarding the state of things there. That may have been true here as well, even as recently as a year or two ago. But that is changing by the day. There isn't much pressure now since the number of active users has increased since the UGM and OET projects have started up. But I think even WCG and IBM are starting to realize that will only be temporary unless things on a much more fundamental level change. At least I hope that some in a position to make those changes are beginning to understand that. In the meantime, I think those of us that realize what a great resource WCG is have an obligation to point out its failings. The approach you suggest basically amounts to 'STFU.' But if you actually care about something, I don't think that's an option. ![]() ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Twilyth, you are making a lot of assumptions about what we actually did for the Folding Project issues that do not represent what actually happened. But you would have had to been there, active in the situation and have that first hand knowledge. Several of us were actually also communicating directly via phone and emails with the leadership of the Folding@Home project. So, our activity moved well beyond hopes that forum conversation was being noticed. Also, using the term "STFU" as a descriptor for what I'm saying is so far off base that I find it offensive. That too is not correct.
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