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World Community Grid Forums
Category: Completed Research
Forum: Drug Search for Leishmaniasis Forum
Thread: Is the project going faster than expected? |
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Thread Status: Active Total posts in this thread: 43
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Dark Angel
Veteran Cruncher Australia Joined: Nov 11, 2005 Post Count: 721 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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krakatuk ... This defeats the entire concept of selecting projects to run - or to exclude. No. The concept of allowing or disallowing various sub projects is for the individual's benefit only and has only ever applied to what work that specific individual does. All the projects on the grid are, within their specific agreements with WCG, entitled to expect roughly even distribution of grid resources which is entirely fair enough. Thinking that an individual user should be able to disadvantage an entire project at their whim, and in breach of standing contracts with WCG, suggests an ego of astronomic proportions. If you don't want to crunch for project X then don't, but if you honestly think you're entitled to dictate how the whole grid works then you need to get over yourself.  Currently being moderated under false pretences |
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Hypernova
Master Cruncher Audaces Fortuna Juvat ! Vaud - Switzerland Joined: Dec 16, 2008 Post Count: 1908 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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Absent an official response, following your logic and a little algo of me own, got it down to 375,000 years ;>) It is really the time that we get a quantum computer here at WCG.  http://www.dwavesys.com/en/dw_homepage.html Developing the code for it would be a nightmarish task I suppose.   |
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krakatuk
Advanced Cruncher Germany Joined: Oct 3, 2008 Post Count: 141 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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Thinking that an individual user should be able to disadvantage an entire project at their whim, and in breach of standing contracts with WCG, suggests an ego of astronomic proportions. If you don't want to crunch for project X then don't, but if you honestly think you're entitled to dictate how the whole grid works then you need to get over yourself. Usually people don't want to disadvantage any project but want to advantage some. E.g. a lot of crunchers are crunching only HCC to defeat cancer as soon as possible. But in fact they don't bring any advantage to HCC doing so - they could crunch any other project and it wouldn't change anything. And I realy would expect to bring some more advantage to a project if I'm crunching exclusively for it. But it's not the case. I don't want to say, that it's bad how it works, specially because I don't favor any project. But I think not many people here realize that they are always crunching for the whole WCG and not for particular project. I hope with my thoughts I'm not bringing anyone to a disappointment.  |
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Ingleside
Veteran Cruncher Norway Joined: Nov 19, 2005 Post Count: 974 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Usually people don't want to disadvantage any project but want to advantage some. E.g. a lot of crunchers are crunching only HCC to defeat cancer as soon as possible. But in fact they don't bring any advantage to HCC doing so - they could crunch any other project and it wouldn't change anything. And I realy would expect to bring some more advantage to a project if I'm crunching exclusively for it. But it's not the case. I don't want to say, that it's bad how it works, specially because I don't favor any project. But I think not many people here realize that they are always crunching for the whole WCG and not for particular project. I hope with my thoughts I'm not bringing anyone to a disappointment. The problem with your reasoning is, while you runs example HCC exclusively, chances are another user runs FAH exclusively, a 3rd. runs HFCC exclusively, a 4th. runs DSFL exclusively, a 5th. runs C4CW exclusively and a 6th. runs HPF2 exclusively. Meaning, while 6 users doesn't run anything besides their exclusive project, the individual users "extra" crunching in a single project is cancelled-out by the 5 other users not crunching this project at all. Just to make it very simple, by not counting CEP2, WCG currently has 6 active projects, and roughly 200k active computers. Now, I've no idea how the actual spread of computers are, but this can example be: 20500 runs HCC exclusively. 19500 runs C4CW exclusively. 20333 runs HFCC exclusively. 19667 runs FAH exclusively. 20001 runs DSFL exclusively. 19999 runs HPF2 exclusively. 80k runs whatever they get. With this distribution of computers across projects, chances are none of the exclusive-users gives their project-choise any advantage over the other projects. To be sure a project gets an advantage over the other projects, with 200k active computers and 6 active projects, this equals more than 33333 active computers having the same exclusive project. Meaning, it's not that selecting an exclusive project doesn't give an advantage, the problem is that not enough users has choosen the same exclusive project. BTW, while just based on the numbers selecting one (or more) of the projects and de-selecting some of them doesn't seem to give any advantage, this isn't neccessarily true. If example a computer runs all projects except example HPF2 perfectly, not wasting the time on the crashing HPF2-tasks will be an advantage.  "I make so many mistakes. But then just think of all the mistakes I don't make, although I might." |
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johncmacalister2010@gmail.com
Veteran Cruncher Canada Joined: Nov 16, 2010 Post Count: 799 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Usually people don't want to disadvantage any project but want to advantage some. E.g. a lot of crunchers are crunching only HCC to defeat cancer as soon as possible. But in fact they don't bring any advantage to HCC doing so - they could crunch any other project and it wouldn't change anything. And I realy would expect to bring some more advantage to a project if I'm crunching exclusively for it. But it's not the case. I don't want to say, that it's bad how it works, specially because I don't favor any project. But I think not many people here realize that they are always crunching for the whole WCG and not for particular project. I hope with my thoughts I'm not bringing anyone to a disappointment. The problem with your reasoning is, while you runs example HCC exclusively, chances are another user runs FAH exclusively, a 3rd. runs HFCC exclusively, a 4th. runs DSFL exclusively, a 5th. runs C4CW exclusively and a 6th. runs HPF2 exclusively. Meaning, while 6 users doesn't run anything besides their exclusive project, the individual users "extra" crunching in a single project is cancelled-out by the 5 other users not crunching this project at all. Just to make it very simple, by not counting CEP2, WCG currently has 6 active projects, and roughly 200k active computers. Now, I've no idea how the actual spread of computers are, but this can example be: 20500 runs HCC exclusively. 19500 runs C4CW exclusively. 20333 runs HFCC exclusively. 19667 runs FAH exclusively. 20001 runs DSFL exclusively. 19999 runs HPF2 exclusively. 80k runs whatever they get. With this distribution of computers across projects, chances are none of the exclusive-users gives their project-choise any advantage over the other projects. To be sure a project gets an advantage over the other projects, with 200k active computers and 6 active projects, this equals more than 33333 active computers having the same exclusive project. Meaning, it's not that selecting an exclusive project doesn't give an advantage, the problem is that not enough users has choosen the same exclusive project. BTW, while just based on the numbers selecting one (or more) of the projects and de-selecting some of them doesn't seem to give any advantage, this isn't neccessarily true. If example a computer runs all projects except example HPF2 perfectly, not wasting the time on the crashing HPF2-tasks will be an advantage.  My head is spinning with all this stuff. I will just continue processing the projects I choose and hope my efforts are put to good use!  crunching, crunching, crunching. AMD Ryzen 5 2600 6-core Processor with Windows 11 64 Pro. AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor with Windows 11 64 Pro (part time)  |
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Hypernova
Master Cruncher Audaces Fortuna Juvat ! Vaud - Switzerland Joined: Dec 16, 2008 Post Count: 1908 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Ah! statistics, statistics.
----------------------------------------Let's look at the project average daily number of returned valid results: DSFL: 49'451 CCW: 101'176 CEP2: 14'002 HCMD2: 104'874 HFCC2: 51'877 HPFP2: 58'311 FAAH: 68'473 Two top with HCMD2 and CCW over 100k units. The bottom line is with CEP2 with under 20k units. The middle average is between 50-70k units. The answer is that things are not so equilibrated as we could imagine in theory. It can be for technical reasons or other, but a project can have less resources devoted to him than to another one. |
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gb009761
Master Cruncher Scotland Joined: Apr 6, 2005 Post Count: 2977 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Ah, yes - statistics... Another consideration to throw into the pot, is that not all WU's are equal in length - thus, who's to say that 2 of x project, should equate to 1 of y - when project y produces WU's twice as long as project x.
----------------------------------------Getting back on track with this topic though, what would REALLY be nice, is for a project scientist to make an appearance and say what the initial feelings of how the project is going - perhaps, may I be so bold, as to suggest a thread similar to the one CEP2 has?, where it's updated on a very regular (or even, just fairly regular) basis...  |
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Mysteron347
Senior Cruncher Australia Joined: Apr 28, 2007 Post Count: 179 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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krakatuk ... This defeats the entire concept of selecting projects to run - or to exclude. No. The concept of allowing or disallowing various sub projects is for the individual's benefit only and has only ever applied to what work that specific individual does. All the projects on the grid are, within their specific agreements with WCG, entitled to expect roughly even distribution of grid resources which is entirely fair enough. Thinking that an individual user should be able to disadvantage an entire project at their whim, and in breach of standing contracts with WCG, suggests an ego of astronomic proportions. If you don't want to crunch for project X then don't, but if you honestly think you're entitled to dictate how the whole grid works then you need to get over yourself. Yes. Suppose there are just 2 projects on WCG. Project A gets 20% of available crunchpower selected as dedicated. Project B gets 10% dedicated. If 3/7 of the remaining 70% is allotted to A and 4/7 to B, then the result is that there is no point whatever in anyone's dedicating their processing power to any particular project as your phantom agreement for equal allocation cancels out the contributor's action in specifically assigning resources to a particular project. Now - if the remaining 70% was split 50/50 - there may be an argument for that. Or perhaps the 70% should be split 20/10 to keep in line with the 'dedicated' proportions as an indicator of 'popularity' - I can see logic in that method. How you make the leap "of astronomical proportions" from an individual's choice of projects to 'dictating how the whole grid works' is astonishing. The simple fact is that there is no point in allowing individuals to choose which projects they prefer to crunch if the powers that be simply change the proportions of the non-dedicated crunching-power to achieve any such 'contracted' goal - real, phantom, legal or political. And any such manipulation should and would be seen by crunchers who DO dedicate their machines to particular projects as deceitful in the extreme - deliberately generating the illusion that their CHOICE has any effect. The fact that there are more than 2 projects being run is not relevant to the principle. The allotment of non-dedicated crunchpower may not be manipulated to satisfy any non-TECHNICAL 'balancing' aim without seriously violating the trust of the donor. (The current problem with HCMD2 I would see as a valid 'technical' reason to reduce the allotment of non-dedicated crunchpower to that project. Experiencing less-than-expected popularity for a project is not a technical reason - it's a political reason) |
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stwainer
Advanced Cruncher Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Post Count: 128 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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And any such manipulation should and would be seen by crunchers who DO dedicate their machines to particular projects as deceitful in the extreme - deliberately generating the illusion that their CHOICE has any effect. Huh? If I choose to run project A and only project A on my computer, then I'm just running project A on my computer. I have made a choice and WCG has honored that choice. What the rest of the WCG world chooses is of no concern of mine. I do not make choices for them. If my friend chooses to run "all" projects and due to my choice his computer sees slightly more WU from project B, because of my exclusive choice of project A, there is no conflict with his choice of running all projects ( unless he *never* see's a project A WU), which is not the case. Just because project A is more 'popular' ( has more exclusive users) doesn't mean it gets more processing power. It's not a beauty contest.  |
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Dark Angel
Veteran Cruncher Australia Joined: Nov 11, 2005 Post Count: 721 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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krakatuk ... This defeats the entire concept of selecting projects to run - or to exclude. No. The concept of allowing or disallowing various sub projects is for the individual's benefit only and has only ever applied to what work that specific individual does. All the projects on the grid are, within their specific agreements with WCG, entitled to expect roughly even distribution of grid resources which is entirely fair enough. Thinking that an individual user should be able to disadvantage an entire project at their whim, and in breach of standing contracts with WCG, suggests an ego of astronomic proportions. If you don't want to crunch for project X then don't, but if you honestly think you're entitled to dictate how the whole grid works then you need to get over yourself. Yes. Suppose there are just 2 projects on WCG. ***] ********* **edited for inappropriate forum language** TKH Currently being moderated under false pretences [Edit 1 times, last edit by TKH at Sep 29, 2011 12:15:57 PM] |
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