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FightAIDS looses the battle

smile
I’ve found out about the FightAIDS project a few days ago, got very exited, installed it on my private machine at home, two machines at work, and distributed it to many employees in my company.
sad
The following morning, many of them got a “low virtual memory” message and some of the other applications running on their machines simply crashed. Never mind the one time damage done to their other running programs. Never mind the fact that they all came to me with complains. FightAIDS and other similar projects lose potential computing power by people dropping out. You MUST do something about this monstrous memory consumption!
[Dec 7, 2005 7:56:43 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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smile Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

Why not just increase the Page file? Virtual Memory and Physical Memory are two different things and as long as you have hard drive space then increasing the Virtual Memory isn't a big deal.

You could always just run HPF if all else fails, I think it's just as important to our ultimate goal.

I do agree though, the 100mb of memory (says taskman) that AutoDock is consuming on some of my computers is quite a lot of memory :) esp. if you consider I can run 2 Rosettas w/BOINC and that's just under 50mb on my X2 compy hehe but I care not.
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

i think to make more virtual memory you do like this:

control panel
system
advanced
settings (top)
advanced

than at the bottom, 'change'

also a lot of machines to run FA@H need more than 256MB of RAM. how much do your machines have?
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shock Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

Hello johnsmith2123 ,
Yes, the virtual memory requirements for a scientific program keeping track of all the atoms in a molecule are quite steep compared to other types of programs. FightAIDS@Home adds 300MB needed for virtual memory. If a system runs out of virtual memory, then some program is probably going to crash.

On my own computers, I clicked on Start - Settings - Control Panel - System - Advanced And then in the Performance section I clicked on Settings - Advanced and then in the Virtual Memory section I selected Change. This brought up the page actually controlling the Virtual Memory size. If the size allocated was too small, I applied System Management, allowing the OS to add virtual memory if it became necessary.

The problem is that this is likely (certain) to fragment the paging file, which slows virtual memory down. On the other hand, how often will virtual memory really get a workout so that inefficiency becomes noticeable? Anyway, you have to do this any time you increase the memory in a system or the virtual memory file will be too small for the new system RAM.

mycrofth
[Dec 8, 2005 1:14:15 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

Windows isn't great at automatically resizing the page file, but it does it eventually. Your computer may freeze for a brief period while it catches up, but the only way anything would crash is if there was insufficient disc space.

Setting the size manually avoids the slowdown problem, but if you estimate the size wrong, then a fatal crash is more likely.
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

Thanks,
I know how to handle memory issues on my machine. The problem will be to convince other people who already uninstalled the agent...

p.s. I meant "excited" not "exited"... :-)
[Dec 8, 2005 7:30:44 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Viktors
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

Dear johnsmith2123:

I assume you increased your virtual memory paging file size. Did this help in your situation? Also, how much real memory do you have?

Thanks.
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

Hi,
Thanks for the quick response.
First of all, I like to say I’m still very excited about the whole computing-for-a-better-world idea and will keep pushing people to plug in to the grid.
I’m not at work right now, so I can not check the configuration of the machines that crashed…
Anyway, you might want to use more physical disk reading and writing and less virtual memory. It will slow down the computation for sure, but will give you more running agents (less uninstalls).
You have to appreciate the user who installs the agent: His machine is never idle, his CPU and Disk work constantly 24x7, which probably shorten their lives by a few years. He’s afraid of a virus infection. He installs non-open-source software that can potentially do anything (e.g. reading personal data from his computer and sending it to IBM…).
At this point, he’s already very suspicious and cautious. His mouse is already half way to the uninstall button when his computer starts popping up low virtual memory messages…
[Dec 8, 2005 10:28:15 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Viktors
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle


Anyway, you might want to use more physical disk reading and writing and less virtual memory.

This is what virtual memory paging does. When there is not enough real memory, it writes out portions of real memory that applications have not recently needed to disk (the paging file) and reads in the portions of data the current program needs from the disk paging file (that were saved there before) into the freed up real memory locations. This way, the operating system swaps the content back and forth from memory to disk as different applications become active and inactive. Since the agent for World Community Grid has lowest priority, other applications needing to run and use more memory will cause the memory used by our agent to get moved to disk. However, as the other applications go idle, the system moves the memory needed by the agent back to memory (and saves what was in memory in those locations back to disk). All of this activity is called "paging" and if will slow things down a bit if there is a lot of it. The solution is to run the agent as a "screen saver only" when you have a machine that does not have a lot of real memory. That way, there is minimal disruption from paging delays. For the AIDS project, the total amount of virtual memory needed (which translates roughly into the portion of the paging file size used + real memory used by the application) is about 300 MB. However, most of the time, only about 75MB of real memory is needed (called working set size) by the AIDS project and the rest of the 225MB allocated sits in the paging file on disk.

We cannot predict how many other applications a user will open, but each one will end up allocating some amount of virtual memory. If the total hits the virtual memory limit currently set on your machine, then the next application will not be able to start because it cannot allocate sufficient virtual memory. So, the user needs to increase the maximum paging file size setting. If there are too many such memory hungry applications open and running at the same time, the paging activity will increase response time (slow things down) and eventually hit a point called "thrashing" when you have way too much going on for the amount of real memory to handle. Then the system seems to come to a slow crawl. This would occur when the totals of all of the working set sizes for the applications running add up to more than the amount of real memory you have on your machine.


You have to appreciate the user who installs the agent: His machine is never idle, his CPU and Disk work constantly 24x7, which probably shorten their lives by a few years.


Of course, any computer running will experience some wear and tear, especially in the moving parts. Components, which might have latent weaknesses or flaws in them may eventually fail and cause the computer to not work. You have to judge for yourself the risks of using your computer for anything you do with it and whether your warranty covers potential failures adequately for your particular situation. We don't ask you to run your machine extra hours or change your usage habits. But many members feel it is important to contribute more, so some do leave their machines on for much longer times. You should do regular maintenance on any computer, cleaning out dust from fans etc. And, you should make backups of all of your important files on a regular basis, because eventually, all computers will fail. But, in the end, you have to judge all of these risks for your personal situation and make your own decision.


He’s afraid of a virus infection. He installs non-open-source software that can potentially do anything (e.g. reading personal data from his computer and sending it to IBM…). At this point, he’s already very suspicious and cautious. His mouse is already half way to the uninstall button when his computer starts popping up low virtual memory messages…


Let me assure you that IBM takes extensive measures to make sure the agent software that we run on your machine does not contain viruses, spyware, or other malicious code. This whole project depends on this to retain the trust of our members. The software we use is probably the safest of all that resides on your machine.
[Dec 9, 2005 6:40:31 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: FightAIDS looses the battle

WOW!!! Thanks again for the quick and detailed response! It’s a pleasure knowing there are guys out there ready to spend time reading and responding to user questions.

• Regarding the virtual memory issue… Again, I understand the solution to the virtual memory problem. I know that changing the code can be hard (sometimes not practical) and will surely cause it to run slower. Maybe, this application really needs more memory than any other application.
- A suggestion: How about just adding a troubleshooting section with this issue to the agent readme file?

• Regarding all the other issues… I personally think that a hard drive once in a few years is a small price to pay for making this world a little bit better, and personally I run the agent almost 24x7. I’m not afraid of viruses since I’m running an updated antivirus and so should anyone with a network connection. I do believe the pure intensions of the programmers and don’t think every program I install is searching my files trying to found out my credit card number… But… 1. I consider myself a naïve-by-choice person and always believe in the pure intentions of people, even when I know there is a good chance I’m wrong. 2. I cannot disregard the fact that almost 90% of the other colleagues I tried to plug in to the grid thought I’m crazy installing the “how-do-you-know-what-it-really-does” agent and took a long time convincing (one time I even conditioned helping someone by him installing the agent :-) ). In this era people are becoming more and more suspicious of unknown software.
- A suggestion: How about adding a message (at the beginning of the agent installation program) clearly stating the purity of intensions of the agent application?
[Dec 10, 2005 12:54:50 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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