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MarkH
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Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

Is it time to think about the unthinkable for WCG??

I believe it is. Despite the gallant hard work of everyone involved in the WCG move since the beginning, the frequent system issues and lack of resources (human, technical, and monetary) have led me to think the unthinkable and propose that the WCG be moved to some other sponsor with the resources to run WCG without the giant mess it has become.

Pointers:
1. Krembil is ZERO help with WCG. They somehow got their name plastered all over WCG, but provider ZERO support of any type to fix the problems and get WCG stable and functioning long-term. How did they get their name in lights without contributing anything?? Who at Krembil approved this arrangement? Does their Board of Directors or equivalent even know about the "sham sponsorship"??

2. The technical nightmare: Somehow Dr. J. is dealing with UHN, Sharcnet, and I think some other org to cobble together the "back end" to run WCG. In short, it is a technical nightmare. The latest "virtual hard drive" disaster indicates there's not enough physical hardware to do the work, so somebody created a VHD on some other hardware that also apparently isn't able to handle the job, and finally crashed and burned. And this isn't the first time that between UHN and Sharcnet systems have failed, with the usual results. The attempt to re-create IBM's well-funded and well-staffed WCG on a shoestring budget has failed. There is no way to sugarcoat this point. The new WCG has been, and is, a technological failure.

3. The personnel problem: Dr. J. is also dealing with a shoestring staff that has drowned in trying to keep the impossible running long enough to contribute to science. There is no 24/7/365 tech support for the project itself; if it goes down on Friday after 5pm it's down until at least Monday. (Yes, the joke "WHICH Monday?" seen on the forum also applies). With no resources there's no way to expedite investigation, repair, and recovery. There is not enough staff to communicate promptly with the volunteers running work units when something happens, and many times the communiques are days late. Nor is there sufficient staff to handle the myriad of user inquires/bug reports, etc. The old saying "this is no way to run a railroad" applies. And no matter how dedicated the WCG team itself is, they can't do it alone, and do not have control over a number of their technology assets; they are apparently run by UHN and Sharcnet, which leaves WCG at other organization's mercy.

4. The money problem: Dr. J. has rightly pointed out the lack of funding as a serious obstacle to achieving a stably-functioning WCG. The money issue also drives the tech and staffing issues. Despite efforts to secure grants from a variety of sources, and donations from users, the continued dearth of money dooms WCG to a "slow but quick death", as continued system issues drive away volunteers, slow recruitment of new volunteers (I cannot ethically recruit volunteers to the WCG in its current state), until the Death Spiral quickly becomes irreversible. Pure science as a whole lacks the research money, and apparently none of the world's billionaires want to splash their name across WCG for some reason.

The only answers I can see to keep WCG alive is to consider moving it to a new corporate sponsor (hey Intel, AMD, Apple, Microsoft, etc.!), or get some major university in Canada (one or more of the U15 Group of Canadian Research Universities??) to run or host it and fund it as part of their research programs. Maybe some combination of corporate financial support and private hosting is the ultimate answer. Maybe Health Canada can be consulted as to some kind of partnership.

But where WCG stands now is untenable, no matter how hard everyone has worked so far to try keeping WCG alive. And time is running out.
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"That science of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."
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Sgt.Joe
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

All good and salient points. However, I tend to put on the "rose colored glasses" and try to be optimistic. If only to run its own project (MCM) the incentive remains to keep the project running. I think it is a good idea to try to get a consortium of research universities to pool some of their resources (and profession grant writers) to help fund the research. I don't know much about fundraising, but I can't help but think there is money available, it is just a case of looking in the right place(s). I would not quite give this up for dead yet.

N.B. "slow but quick death" quite the oxymoron. Kudos.

Cheers
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Sgt. Joe
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bikeaddict
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

I've been thinking the same for over a year. The people on this forum are in denial. This project is a zombie stumbling along and people still pretend it's alive and well. It never recovered after IBM shut it down in Feb 2022 and I don't see it recovering or see myself returning until another sponsor takes ownership. The daily hours of runtime have have been half or less from the peak or 600 years before the switch.

See my previous posts:
https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg...ad,44273_offset,60#676049
https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg...,35775_offset,1440#681830

I've been 100% on Folding@Home where they never run out of work. On the rare occasion where there's a server problem, they usually get it fixed quickly. There are currently over 700K tasks waiting currently, including GPU and CPU tasks.

https://apps.foldingathome.org/serverstats

The EOC and LAR charts of daily points are good for monitoring performance and seeing how you rank on your team and globally.

https://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/user_summary.php?s=&u=1134987
https://folding.lar.systems/league/user?name=bikeaddict&team=236269

And there's a forum for discussion.

https://foldingforum.org/index.php

But I still try to check in on the WCG forum for some entertainment, even if it's disappointing that no improvements have been made in stability or communication.
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Sgt.Joe
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

even if it's disappointing that no improvements have been made in stability or communication.

Well, it is stable, at least for the moment. However, I completely agree the communication is woefully inadequate.

Cheers
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Sgt. Joe
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[Oct 29, 2023 12:57:35 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Unixchick
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

I don't know where this savior company would come from. IBM doesn't want the project anymore. Dr. J managed to save WCG. It is functioning in spurts and science is being done. It is far from what it was with IBM, but at least it didn't die when IBM threw it away.

It isn't all bad news. It has been functional enough for me to earn some new badges, and I look forward to earning some more. I have a backup project or two for when they have hiccups, but truthfully I haven't found another project I connect with.

Thank you to the team that took WCG and saved it when no one else would or could. I appreciate all the hard work put in to making the system work in its new home.
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Mike.Gibson
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

Research institutes everywhere are desperate for cash for their own projects. Presumably Krembil is just the same. We are grateful that they saved WCG and assume that it was to save their own project - MCM.

IBM was a global corporation based in USA and Krembil are a research institute in Canada. However, WCG is for the benefit of mankind globally. The funding solution should be a global issue with support from a wide range of sources from many countries.

Organisations such as the National Science Foundation (USA) and Horizon (EU/UK) should be tapped for support. There must be equivalents elsewhere. And then there are scientific charities such as Wellcome Trust (UK) and philanthropic charities.

The issue is, or could be, too big for any one sponsor. Maybe that is the problem in that possible sponsors would want too much publicity from their sponsorship and would not want a small part and have their contribution watered down by being swamped by others.

The thoughts should be on the benefits to mankind.

The volunteers are contributing vast amounts in terms of time, equipment and energy usage.

Mike
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Paul Schlaffer
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

Dr. Jurisica has already outlined the issues in detail prior, so we don't need to guess what those are. To get WCG back to the same health as it was when funded by IBM, requires money. That could be solved by either funding the project sponsor, or moving it to a new sponsor like Elon Musk, that would have the resources to fund it. I'm also not a fan of whining about problems, nor do I like "can't". People can be part of the solution by making a regular, periodic donation, helping spread the word to fund raise, or if you have contacts with a potential sponsor to initiate that idea. Complaining solves nothing, action does.
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“Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.” – James Madison (1792)
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as1981
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

Firstly I agree with the comments about appreciating the effort that the current team are making to keep the system running.

Secondly I think it is worth mentioning that there are other Boinc related projects which do not have workunits available 24/7 so maybe WCG can still be successful even though the system does not run all the time.

I also think that the communication from the team is generally getting better.

It may also be that the system reliability will improve as the current team get more experience with maintaining it.

I hope the required finance can be found to keep WCG successfully producing data for the science projects.
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bikeaddict
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG

I believe they could be doing a better job with both the operation and communication with their current funding.

But they need leadership to come up with a plan to write educational/marketing literature and create a vision of how the platform will operate and improve going forward, growing the number of scientific projects and attracting more citizen scientists to donate their computing power. Then they can go to an organization like the Gates Foundation or MacKenzie Scott's Yield Giving with a proposal and sell themselves to get funding.
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thunder7
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Re: Thinking the Unthinkable about WCG


It may also be that the system reliability will improve as the current team get more experience with maintaining it.


Well, they're certainly getting a lot of experience maintaining it, I agree. biggrin
[Oct 29, 2023 8:59:14 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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