Information

[Flasher]

I put this in the Debate Forum because with some topics, you just never know.


The Cleveland (Ohio) City school district has a budget deficit. In order to balance the budget, cuts had to be made. They decided to close a number of schools, which will send displaced students to other schools. They are also eliminating ALL teachers from the schools that are closing. 545 teachers are being terminated. 545!! When asked what this would do to the student-teacher ratio, the superintendent indicated that this reorganization plan will push the ratio to 40-45 to 1, and in some classes upwards of 50 to 1!



I should indicate that this doesn't affect me. I do not live in the City of Cleveland, but we are in the suburbs. I heard these numbers and was stunned. Just stunned. Forty students to one teacher? Does this number sound absolutely ridiculous? It's hard enough for teachers to educate with the 20-30 they have now. I can't imagine how difficult it's going to be now. Geez.



Schools can't function without teachers - good teachers. Why is it that when money is tight, the first thing to go is teachers? Why not sports? Why not extra curriculars? Why not support staff? Why not cut out extras, if applicable, such as laptops for students, etc.? I know how important extra curriculars and sports are to some students futures, but the main point of the education system is to educate. I just don't get it.

[megamay]

omg! 50 to 1! that is crazy! even 40 to 1 sounds a bit ridiculous to me

[ajkulig]

Budget cuts are EVERYWHERE! I wish it didn't have to be in education I think teachers are really underpaid (along with miltary, police, fireman and others). It's hard to comment on this subject with out all the facts, we have a lot of problems here in Las Vegas and if I still live here when my olderst daughter starts kindergarden this fall she will be homeschooled. My friends DD who is in K has 36 kids in her HALF DAY K class.... nothing gets done. The kids preform awfully we are 48th in the country. They have not decided how they are going to close to budget gap here yet.

[Flasher]

I certainly don't know all of the facts with regards to the Cleveland situation either. But, I just don't think that eliminating that many teachers is a step in a positive direction. I can't fathom how it could be.

[Retiree3]

As a former teacher, I totally agree with you. The school district is doing more harm than good. That is a sad state of affairs.

[JeanG]

The schools in this area are in the same plight. The shortfalls are from $345,000 and up. Schools are being closed; students are being bused to schools further away. They're cutting janitorial and ancillary staff - but the biggest cut is the number of teachers. Makes me ill to think of how our grandkids will fare; especially the 2 with A.D.D.! I can't imagine who will want to go through college to be a teacher when they have to try to teach 45 or more students in a 45 minute class for the small amount of salary they make. It's total insanity...and I honestly think that the government - both Republican and Democrat - are trying to push out public schools so they have more money for other things. Like $500 wrenches. (So, o.k. - I'm sarcastic, too!) I think that more people are trying to find the money for private schools...and that just helps out the government with their plan. (Not that I think private school is bad - I'd have sent my kids to one if I'd had the money.) I'm so afraid that in the next 50 years we'll be back to only the kids who have money can go to school as it was in the 1700's. I don't think the government is "plotting" against those of us who don't have money - I think it's just one of the ways the very rich see things. This is all just IMO.

[amberella]

I wrote a big long rant but I'm not sure you want to read it. This, along with financial aid for college are two of my "Soap Box" topics... and once you get me up there it's hard to get me down.

I'll suffice to say that I really wish taxpayers would ask for some accountability from schools... so many teachers and academic programs could be saved if some waste were cut... *sigh*

[LyndaKay]

they are going to have to beg for volunteers! Maybe appeal to retired people to come and help.

[scraptag]

Yep. That's another reason are teachers are striking tomorrow! Why does the media keep saying things are getting better???

[scrappie_stacie]

I with you! Class rooms that big cannot achieve anything. Our state has mandated so many classes that kids no longer have any room for electives at high school level like music...and I consider music very important! I cannot complain right now, because my kids have at most 26 in a class, and my 8 yr old (2nd grade) only has 18 in his class. Michigan allows "Schools of Choice", which basically allows any student to go anywhere regardless of what school district they live in, as long as the district they want to attend is participating and has openings. Schools can opt out of participating which means they don't have to accept out of district students, but they cannot stop students from within their district from going elsewhere. My school district has almost 30% of its students from outside the district! It has caused such crowding at the high school level that the kids don't have enough time to eat once they've gotten thru the lunch line. They had to install over 500 new lockers over the summer to accomodate students who didn't have one. And yet the district wanted a huge bond proposal to pay for new buildings... and 30% of the kids don't even pay taxes for our district!

That is not fair at all! They need to figure out how to "tax" or "charge" those kids that are out of district. If your schools are overcrowded I wonder what the advantage is to them letting in kids from other districts making the situation worse. Why don't they close the open enrollment instead of accepting these kids? I just don't understand all that stuff. We have always gone to school in the district we live and if we didn't want to then we paid out of our own pocket for private school.

[milmomma]

This is another point...
We enroll our kids in the on base military schools. They are limited number of students. Beyond that it is our responsibility to put them in private schools at our cost. Well, we don't make enough for our kids to go to private school (specially here in Korea, where it is 7x what it was back home). Our other option is homeschool. Which is what I may have to start considering more highly. I'm not a teacher and no way say I am. I wonder if my kid would get a better education in a class with 1 teacher and 39 other students than with me.

[killarney_rose]

I can get on a huge soapbox about schools, too. All I can say is I'm delighted my two have graduated. One has graduated college, the other still in college.

We have explicit laws in Texas on classroom size. We have this really stupid no tolerance policy in public schools that drives me slap NUTS! And every two years when our legislature meets school budgets are always front and center. And my property school taxes go up every year. Districts are so blasted top heavy with administration it makes me ill.

Like I said I am glad I'm through, unless I end up with custody of a great-nephew.

I really feel for Ohio and Michigan right now. Not just schools, the economy, agriculture issues and the list is so huge.

[koala1966]

Down here they passed a classroom size amendment, I think it's supposed to be a max of 25 students per class. I don't remember exactly - I voted against it because I knew they didn't have funding to make it happen and it seemed dumb to do something you can't afford - end up with classes sitting in front of the school or something. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefit of limiting the number of students per class but I felt like in the end the students would still suffer for them having to find the money to make it all happen. I'm not sure if it's all in place yet, or how it's worked out.

I hate that education is always among the first thing to get cut when there's a budget shortfall. How about no longer paying for meals for politicians? I'll bet that could save some money. Cut their travel expenses. I'm sure there are lots of things for them to cut before hitting education, emergency workers, and libraries, but those always seem to be the popular targets.

[scrappie_stacie]

They accept the out of district kids for the money it pulls in. Admittedly, because our school is large they are able to offer a lot of classes that smaller schools cannot. They have not only French and Spanish as foreign languages, but German and Latin. They have a wide variety of literature classes, put on amazing plays every fall and wonderful musicals each spring. But I would gladly give up some of those things to have smaller classrooms, and a school where my daughter has room and TIME to eat her lunch. They have now capped the open enrollment in the high school to existing students only, but the elementary and middle school levels are still open. THere are almost 1900 students in our high school!

What money? Do the kids have to pay to attend an out of district school there?

[deerewife]

They accept the out of district kids for the money it pulls in. Admittedly, because our school is large they are able to offer a lot of classes that smaller schools cannot. They have not only French and Spanish as foreign languages, but German and Latin. They have a wide variety of literature classes, put on amazing plays every fall and wonderful musicals each spring. But I would gladly give up some of those things to have smaller classrooms, and a school where my daughter has room and TIME to eat her lunch. They have now capped the open enrollment in the high school to existing students only, but the elementary and middle school levels are still open. THere are almost 1900 students in our high school!

What money? Do the kids have to pay to attend an out of district school there?

I don't know the answer for sure, but in Nebraska your state aid is based on the students you have enrolled and not based on tax rolls.


On a side note - our district is begging for students - want to move to Nebraska??

My oldest has 14 in her class and my youngest has the largest class in over 20 years at 24. Her class has a full time aide.

[scrappie_stacie]

They accept the out of district kids for the money it pulls in. Admittedly, because our school is large they are able to offer a lot of classes that smaller schools cannot. They have not only French and Spanish as foreign languages, but German and Latin. They have a wide variety of literature classes, put on amazing plays every fall and wonderful musicals each spring. But I would gladly give up some of those things to have smaller classrooms, and a school where my daughter has room and TIME to eat her lunch. They have now capped the open enrollment in the high school to existing students only, but the elementary and middle school levels are still open. THere are almost 1900 students in our high school!

What money? Do the kids have to pay to attend an out of district school there?

I don't know the answer for sure, but in Nebraska your state aid is based on the students you have enrolled and not based on tax rolls.


On a side note - our district is begging for students - want to move to Nebraska??

My oldest has 14 in her class and my youngest has the largest class in over 20 years at 24. Her class has a full time aide.

So they get more $$ from the state based on # of students. However they're taking in more students which is causing them to have to build because they need more room for these new students but they can't afford to do that with the $$ received from the state for these students so they have to go to their residents who already pay property taxes allocated to the schools and ask for more money. Something just seems screwy with that... LOL!

[Art_Teacher]

It's the same here in Ohio, Stacie! The state currently funds schools based on their number of students enrolled...something like $5000 per student. Our little school has to accept open enrollment kids because some students leave to go to the Technical Center or to do the Post-Secondary Option (where they go to college and our school has to pay for it!...don't get me started on how stupid a move that was by the government). When those students leave, the money we would get for them does, too, but we still have to teach the subjects, even if the class size gets smaller, so we allow open enrollment to make up the difference. Then, when they cut budgets and cut teachers, we have huge classes! It's the state's fault for the stupid way they fund schools...and it was ruled unconstitutional in court over 13 years ago, but they haven't done anything to fix it!

Schools can't function without teachers - good teachers. Why is it that when money is tight, the first thing to go is teachers? Why not sports? Why not extra curriculars? Why not support staff? Why not cut out extras, if applicable, such as laptops for students, etc.? I know how important extra curriculars and sports are to some students futures, but the main point of the education system is to educate. I just don't get it.

Amen, Laura! The reason the first thing to go is teachers is because the largest part of the budget goes to pay teachers...as it should be, since we are the ones who are educating the students! 50 to 1 is impossible to teach...even a study hall that size is hard to manage. I am so unhappy with the way public education is going in Ohio that the election for governor can't come soon enough. You would not believe some of the moronic decisions about education that have been made with Gov. Strickland and just when I thought it couldn't get worse than Gov. Taft, it did. Believe me, the problems come from the top, and schools are just trying to stay afloat with all the extra testing mandates (which the schools pay for), and all the requirements for graduation that are so far off-base as to what students really need to learn. It is sickening. Personally, I think we need to go back to local control of school districts, because then the communities would actually have a say in what they wanted their district to be like.



I could debate these issues all day, but I gotta go to work!

[sherry]

I live in Southern Ohio, hadn't hearda that about Cleveland schools but it cannot be a step in the right direction. I totally agree- cut other things! Sports, cheerleading, drama club, music-- I totally think those are ALL GOOD THINGS and great to be available for the kids, but hey, parents could pick up part of that cost. If it comes down to 50 kids to a classroom or football, I'd go with cutting football. The point of school is education and they will not be educated in a classroom of 50 kids, that's just crowd control. Teachers put is so much extra time they are unpaid for, I think most give their all.

Having said that, I did homeschool my kids up to grade 6, then they went into private schools and have been there ever since. I count myself very blessed that this option was doable for us. I have nothing against public schools, other than this: TOO MANY KIDS TO A TEACHER. When I had reading class with my 2 daughters, they read a whole book out loud to me. In school, they would've gotten to read a sentence. I sent them to school in grade 6 because I did not feel qualified to teach them the math classes, such as algebra & pre-calc etc., and I am NOT qualified. Or I would've homeschooled them all the way through. We took it serious, we turned our basement into a classroom and had school til 2pm or so everyday. It was a wonderful time with them.


I give teachers respect and wish more could be done. Our school district also is belly-aching, but they have the money for signs to post in everyone's yards about their kid being a graduate that year, or their kid being on the football team- come on, give me a break! Cut out the extra stuff and pay the teachers and hire more!

[Art_Teacher]

Problem is, in a large district like Cleveland, cutting sports wouldn't save enough money, because it isn't a large enough part of the budget. In my little school, cutting sports or extracurriculars would be a significant savings, but in a big school, you still only have one football team, one basketball team, etc. so the amount of money saved doesn't add up to enough to make up a large deficit. Plus, in Ohio, with most districts having open enrollment, kids will leave to go elsewhere to get their sports, and you will end up losing as much as you save. For example, our district crunched the numbers. By eliminating sports, they would save 100, 000 dollars. If 20 kids left to go somewhere else open enrollment, at $5,000 per student from the state, it would negate all the savings....I tell you, the state and federal governments have caused most of the problems!

[ajkulig]

They accept the out of district kids for the money it pulls in. Admittedly, because our school is large they are able to offer a lot of classes that smaller schools cannot. They have not only French and Spanish as foreign languages, but German and Latin. They have a wide variety of literature classes, put on amazing plays every fall and wonderful musicals each spring. But I would gladly give up some of those things to have smaller classrooms, and a school where my daughter has room and TIME to eat her lunch. They have now capped the open enrollment in the high school to existing students only, but the elementary and middle school levels are still open. THere are almost 1900 students in our high school!

What money? Do the kids have to pay to attend an out of district school there?

I don't know the answer for sure, but in Nebraska your state aid is based on the students you have enrolled and not based on tax rolls.


On a side note - our district is begging for students - want to move to Nebraska??

My oldest has 14 in her class and my youngest has the largest class in over 20 years at 24. Her class has a full time aide.

I already lived in Nebraska, I have a friend who teaches pre-k and she hates it lol