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David Autumns
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

Oh that's great Julied

Thanks biggrin

I love the lovely left hook of Genome sequences

Icing on the cake of irony wink

Most of the science mentioned there could use some input from Grid Computing and long may we provide it.

I've been reading today in The New Scientist how an intelligent creator would be able to send a message to all intelligent beings in the universe by effectively watermarking the Big Bang so that "A Message from God" could be read from the background microwave noise that fills the universe on account of the heat created at the moment of the Big Bang. The argument being that if you are an intelligent creator capable of producing the Big Bang then doing such a thing should be easy to do by comparison. It suggested that the SETI@home project could be re-harnessed into looking for this message instead of ET as it holds more kudos saying that you found God through your laptop than just an Alien biggrin

Controversially in this thread I would suggest that you might find him (or her) much closer to home wink

Dave
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

I love the idea of observing an unequivocal message from The Designer, David -- such fertile ground to explore.
Guesses at what it might say would make an interesting chat thread on its own.
Was it Star Trek Next Generation that found a holographic message from an ancient progenitor species encoded in human and alien DNA?
What would be the theological effects of definitive scientific evidence of a particular "god"?

Not too far off topic, I wonder if you (or others) have an opinion on Frank Tipler's book, The Physics of Immortality . It is his attempt to reconcile scientific and theological eschatology.
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David Autumns
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

Not seen that one sabbathcorn.

I like the way that they suggested that by writing in the microwave background radiation that it would be more "fair" as even if you had 5 legs and 3 eyes, and do I need to say live on a planet far away, everyone has an equal chance of seeing/hearing it

You have to laugh

They said if this message was written on the earth, in our DNA for example or the Grand Canyon, then it wouldn't be (and I paraphrase) equal opportunites for people outside the USA or Aliens.

If the article had been published in early April I would have taken it with a huge pinch of salt. But it was in the round up of 2005 and whoever wrote it was very very earnest.

They suggested that pi 3.1415927 etc might be the key to unlocking the info from within the noise as for each civilisation wherever they may be pi would be understood as a fact by all and so this value would most likely be in the header of the message from God.

It just leaves me shaking my head in disbelief which is one of the smileys we haven't got.

Night
Dave
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

I love the idea of observing an unequivocal message from The Designer, David -- such fertile ground to explore.
Guesses at what it might say would make an interesting chat thread on its own.
Was it Star Trek Next Generation that found a holographic message from an ancient progenitor species encoded in human and alien DNA?
What would be the theological effects of definitive scientific evidence of a particular "god"?

Not too far off topic, I wonder if you (or others) have an opinion on Frank Tipler's book, The Physics of Immortality . It is his attempt to reconcile scientific and theological eschatology.

You must be expecting this response, SC. So as not to dissapoint: All of this hugs is an unequivocal message from the Designer. wink

I've read the standards such as "The Tao of Physics" & "The Dancing Wu Li Masters", but how good a job does Tipler's book do in accomplishing such a daunting task?

Apart from the subject of religion (which is historically more of a political and socio-economic force than it has been a sincere expression of spiritual aspirations), it would be difficult to reconcile these approaches. They each utilize different modes of cognitive function to achieve very different objectives.

Have you read the paper "Time and Classical and Quantum Mechanics: Indeterminancy vs. Discontinuity", by Peter Lynds. Here is yet another brilliant example of a self-taught outsider turning academia on it's collective heads by presenting what is a simple theoretical explanation for what has historically been the most daunting paradoxes in physics.

The implications of his theory (which are intuitively clear) have potentially profound implications for teleology as well as they do for relativity physics. thinking
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

LOL thanks for the reply and trying not to disappoint. Actually, I took the obvious answer as a given. The clock is a clockmaker's message but it doesn't distinguish a specific clockmaker. I was thinking more of an explicit signature - like a "Made In Heaven" or "Inspected by Angelic Legion #4" label stuck on the side. (Please don't anyone take offense, I'm not mocking and intend no blasphemy -- those were just the images that came to mind.)

I'm a poor judge but Tipler makes a good start for a mathematical physicist. His mathematics are unassailable (by me) but they can't really support some of his wilder philosophical suppositions. He did present a way of resolving the icompatibility of free will and omniscience that I found attractive. I should say that Frank' states clearly that he doesn't believe his theory. Theologians tend to dislike his physics and physicists, his theology. Still, I think there's plenty of food for thought - especially if you don't expect a home run. (Having seen a bit of David A's sense of humor, I know he'd find some real howlers in the book.wink)

Lynd's paper made me think...
( is this paper is a hoax? ... is julied pulling my leg? ... This Lynd guy uses language like a cuisinart uses onions. ... No rigor ... no equations ..logical errors... does Lynd have a spell checker? ... removing time is a cool idea but that's hardly revolutionary ... Is that what Lynd is trying to say? Help me! crying Ouch! my head hurts. OK, sab, get a grip, Lynd is trying to think "outside the box" in the face of a paradox. )
Lynd could have jumped to a correct conclusion, but it isn't a necessary conclusion based on his argument. Anyway that paper started a wild ride -- thanks for the tip, I think.
This piece Zeno Meets Modern Science is a good (if a bit dense) read touching on space and time continuity and timeless/positionless quantum gravity.

Have a happy, prosperous new year,
SC
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Former Member at Dec 30, 2005 10:25:18 AM]
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

writing in the microwave background radiation that it would be more "fair" as even if you had 5 legs and 3 eyes, ... equal opportunites for... Aliens

Oh great! Now I'll have to be politicallly sensitive to hypothetical citizens of the cosmos. crying

Happy local-time-coordinate-corresponding-to-New Year-in-my-intertial reference-frame!
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David Autumns
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

sabbathcorn don't forget to be 1 second later next year we're being adjusted tomorrow

Some lapse in the fabric of space and time continuum wink
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

You are fun to dance with, sc. biggrin

Just to be clear to everyone, my "obvious answer" statement was intended as a comment directed more towards other forum members than it was to sc (which I assume he knows). Hopefully, this invites further comments on the subject. (I defer as the point of this thread is to present and discuss different views; not to arrive at some universally accepted consensus - blah!).

So, David, certainly you aren't going to abandon ship, are you? sad

Speaking of different viewpoints, which does not necessarily imply different basic fundamental insights ...

Yes, Lynd's work is certainly not "de rigueur", paricularly in calculus and logical analysis (according to his critics), but it is stimulating in it's brash unconventionality and directness. Even Princeton legend, John Wheeler, states that he admires Lynd's boldness. (Of course, since Wheeler has been an active member of the Sante Fe Institute, he is more accepting of innovative theories in general.) It is also more accessible to those with just a basic understanding of relativity physics (myself included).

My own fashion statement reflects an appreciation for the "creative and independent rebel" who did not let "but you lack formal training" stop him. His wild assumptions, do "give us pause". Essentially I am admiring, perhaps excessively, the accomplishments and qualities of the man; and less the physicist, which he clearly is not.

In this sense I am up to my old tricks in this forum of "poking the ribs" by constantly advocating the essential value to men and society in preserving and promoting freedom of thought and expression, which is too often dismissed in the usual hubris [Hubris: Excessive pride or self-confidence. ORIGIN Greek, originally denoting presumption towards or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis (Nemesis: divine retribution)]. Or as neo-Freudian psychoanalysts call it, "the false self". wink

Your observations are quite correct, sc. His work must ultimately be evaluated in terms of it's contribution to the field of physics. Which is why I do appreciate the tip and look forward to reading the "Zeno Meets Modern Science" article this weekend. batting eyelashes
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David Autumns
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

So, David, certainly you aren't going to abandon ship, are you? sad


I'm not abandoning ship julied, it's just gone way over my head, I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread "I'm a telecoms engineer" so I'm running hard to keep up. You two and anyone else that wishes to join in please continue, I'll jump back in if and when I can usefully contribute.

Enjoy

Dave.

p.s. I saw a huge whale eating krill yesterday on Sky 3 somewhere in the not as frozen as last year North (yes I'm the one who is watching that channel) just at the moment that it let out a blast as it surfaced for air. As I saw it I was almost for a moment convinced of the Cocker Spaniel argument then I re-engaged my grey matter and thought that's a whale that is wink
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Re: Discovery Channel (ID)

Lynd's work ... is also more accessible

Noooooooooo..... Since my post, I've read more about Lynd. He has an earlier version of the paper (and more)on his website. I'll read them again and report back after the dizziness subsides.
Keep poking, julied -- I don't want to disappear in the ranks of the hide-bound. blushing
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