Index  | Recent Threads  | Unanswered Threads  | Who's Active  | Guidelines  | Search
 

Quick Go »
No member browsing this thread
Thread Status: Active
Total posts in this thread: 19
Posts: 19   Pages: 2   [ 1 2 | Next Page ]
[ Jump to Last Post ]
Post new Thread
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 4274 times and has 18 replies Next Thread
ericinboston
Senior Cruncher
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Post Count: 248
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

This question has been posted numerous times, sometimes buried in threads, since November 2020 and nobody from the MCM is answering it.

Essentially all Macs starting this summer will be on the new M1 (and future design) chip. Currently, with the Apple Emulation Software, MCM runs terribly and produces far fewer WUs than it should.

Is anyone on this forum from the MCM team?
----------------------------------------

[Jun 1, 2021 5:43:02 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
kwolff88
Cruncher
Joined: Dec 31, 2004
Post Count: 19
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Currently, with the Apple Emulation Software, MCM runs terribly and produces far fewer WUs than it should.

It seems to depend on the work unit type, but the main thread concerning the M1 in the Hardware Chat forum shows many MCM workunits finishing at near-native speed. Unless you've read something I haven't? (Do share!)

Not that this invalidates your question, of course. It'll be great to see what the M1 can really do with WCG projects (and others).
[Jun 2, 2021 6:52:49 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
ericinboston
Senior Cruncher
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Post Count: 248
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Currently, with the Apple Emulation Software, MCM runs terribly and produces far fewer WUs than it should.

It seems to depend on the work unit type, but the main thread concerning the M1 in the Hardware Chat forum shows many MCM workunits finishing at near-native speed. Unless you've read something I haven't? (Do share!)


The M1 Mac Mini 8GB RAM machine can only run 3-4 threads of MCM. It's an 8 core/thread CPU, so I'm getting at best 50% of the CPU power. Also, I'd like to add that Boinc/MCM is fairly often only running 3 threads (because the emulation gobbles up so much RAM). So I can really only count on 3 threads (again out of 8) running MCM.

To your point, the M1 threads are crunching at about the same rate as a several year old i9-9900 vPro threads, but again, I'm only getting 1/2 of my M1 CPU's threads tops.

The good side is that the M1 only uses 30 watts of power when tapped out and since I cannot tap out the chip, I'm guessing the Mac is around 20 watts. It also gives off very little heat (which I don't really care about). The M1 is also dead silent.

MCM is going to need to support the M1 real soon...all the Macs will be on M1 by end of summer and MCM is going to notice a massive drop in WUs being returned as more and more Mac people upgrade.

I would bet that if MCM was written natively to use the M1 natively, not only would we get all 8 threads, but the WUs would be crunched faster because there's no emulation software taking up CPU cycles.

As a comparison, my M1 Mac Mini is doing 3-4 threads and returning about 35 WUs a day and the machine cost me $589. 3 Years ago I bought Lenovo Thinkstation P330 machines with the i9 i9-9900 vPro which crunches 16 threads and returns about 180 WUs a day and that machine cost me $725. So I'm getting about 5x the results with the old Lenovo than the new M1. Comparatively, for the M1 to match the Lenovo, I would need to buy 5 Macs so thats just under $3000. $3000 vs. $725. Not good from a crunching point of view. Ideally, if the M1 was using all 8 threads, I would only need to buy 2-3 Minis so between $1200 and $1800. I'm not trying to compare an i9 to the M1 in overall performance. But for the $1200 or $1800 (if I could use all 8 threads of an M1 and hence buy 2-3 Macs) I get a super tiny Mac, using far less power, and giving off far less heat. There's value in that for me.
----------------------------------------

----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by ericinboston at Jun 3, 2021 3:26:24 PM]
[Jun 3, 2021 1:24:50 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
kwolff88
Cruncher
Joined: Dec 31, 2004
Post Count: 19
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Most of your post is well-taken, except for one thing...
The M1 Mac Mini 8GB RAM machine can only run 3-4 threads of MCM. It's an 8 core/thread CPU, so I'm getting at best 50% of the CPU power.

Not quite. It has four "performance" cores and four "efficiency" cores. BOINC projects should have no trouble running on both types, but you won't get the same performance from the other four. (I imagine that MacOS prioritizes the performance cores for heavy workloads.)

I'm actually quite curious what the performance delta is. Presumably somebody out there has tried on a 16GB machine?
[Jun 3, 2021 10:23:47 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
ericinboston
Senior Cruncher
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Post Count: 248
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Most of your post is well-taken, except for one thing...
The M1 Mac Mini 8GB RAM machine can only run 3-4 threads of MCM. It's an 8 core/thread CPU, so I'm getting at best 50% of the CPU power.

Not quite. It has four "performance" cores and four "efficiency" cores. BOINC projects should have no trouble running on both types, but you won't get the same performance from the other four. (I imagine that MacOS prioritizes the performance cores for heavy workloads.)

I'm actually quite curious what the performance delta is. Presumably somebody out there has tried on a 16GB machine?


I don't really know a lot about the 4 performance cores vs. 4 efficiency. I've never found a website that has dived deep into it, provided examples and stats, and yet also summarized it in laymens terms.

What I meant about only getting 50% of the CPU power really was a typo...I'm only getting, at best, 50% of the cores.

If MCM were to run natively on M1, 1)MCM wouldn't take up all that RAM per thread, 2)it should/could use all 8 cores...albeit who knows what the performance is on the 4 efficiency cores, 3)always utilize all 4 performance cores, 4)likely the 4 performance cores will crunch at least a little faster than the cores operating now with the emulation. Summary: running natively on M1 should crunch significantly more WUs per day than currently through emulation. Heck, even just running all 4 performance cores 100% of the time would be a 33% increase in WUs per day over the 3-core processing it is doing today.
----------------------------------------

[Jun 4, 2021 8:15:12 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
mbotmiller
Cruncher
Joined: Dec 1, 2005
Post Count: 47
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Most of your post is well-taken, except for one thing...
The M1 Mac Mini 8GB RAM machine can only run 3-4 threads of MCM. It's an 8 core/thread CPU, so I'm getting at best 50% of the CPU power.

Not quite. It has four "performance" cores and four "efficiency" cores. BOINC projects should have no trouble running on both types, but you won't get the same performance from the other four. (I imagine that MacOS prioritizes the performance cores for heavy workloads.)

I'm actually quite curious what the performance delta is. Presumably somebody out there has tried on a 16GB machine?


I don't really know a lot about the 4 performance cores vs. 4 efficiency. I've never found a website that has dived deep into it, provided examples and stats, and yet also summarized it in laymens terms.

What I meant about only getting 50% of the CPU power really was a typo...I'm only getting, at best, 50% of the cores.
ericinboston, hope you are doing well! Just in case you missed it, I wanted to share a post I shared in the 'Apple M1 Chip and ARM: Impacts on BOINC and WUs?' thread back in February: https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread_thread,42987_offset,45 I won't recap everything here, but essentially from data I've collected myself, the contribution of the 4 "efficiency cores" of the M1 is quite negligible. So if you were able to get your M1 Mac mini crunching 4 threads consistently (which as kwolff88 mentions and I've confirmed, macOS Big Sur will automatically use the 4 performance cores first so you don't have to worry about that) , I don't think you'd then really be giving up any significant crunching power.

I also wanted to share I'm not having any trouble on my end running MCM on a M1 Mac mini with 8GB of memory. I changed the WCG device profile that the M1 Mac mini is using to allow WCG to use up to 99% of the memory and with that in place, I haven't been running into any threads waiting for memory. Here's a screenshot from today of what my M1 Mac mini looks like while doing 8 threads of MCM: https://imgur.com/a/eifcoBl So it seems a little odd that your M1 Mac mini with 8GB wouldn't be able to do at least 4 threads consistently if you had your allowed memory settings set similarly.

I'm not at all disagreeing that it would be great for many of the science applications on WCG and elsewhere to be re-written for native Apple Silicon support going forward. I, too, am excited to see later this year what a more performance-oriented Apple Silicon chip looks like.
[Jun 5, 2021 8:06:17 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Falconet
Master Cruncher
Portugal
Joined: Mar 9, 2009
Post Count: 3294
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Wow, that M1 runs MCM in under 2 hours. My desktop AMD Ryzen 1400 runs them in under 2.5 hours

Bring out those native apps.
----------------------------------------


AMD Ryzen 5 1600AF 6C/12T 3.2 GHz - 85W
AMD Ryzen 5 2500U 4C/8T 2.0 GHz - 28W
AMD Ryzen 7 7730U 8C/16T 3.0 GHz
[Jun 5, 2021 9:45:47 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
ericinboston
Senior Cruncher
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Post Count: 248
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?


I also wanted to share I'm not having any trouble on my end running MCM on a M1 Mac mini with 8GB of memory. I changed the WCG device profile that the M1 Mac mini is using to allow WCG to use up to 99% of the memory and with that in place, I haven't been running into any threads waiting for memory. Here's a screenshot from today of what my M1 Mac mini looks like while doing 8 threads of MCM: https://imgur.com/a/eifcoBl So it seems a little odd that your M1 Mac mini with 8GB wouldn't be able to do at least 4 threads consistently if you had your allowed memory settings set similarly.

I'm not at all disagreeing that it would be great for many of the science applications on WCG and elsewhere to be re-written for native Apple Silicon support going forward. I, too, am excited to see later this year what a more performance-oriented Apple Silicon chip looks like.


Hi and thanks. I'd love for you to tell me how to make any memory changes in the OS. I have Boinc/WCG set to use 100% of RAM and CPUs and again, I get either 3 or 4 threads. Never more than 4. That's on 5 Mac Minis and 1 Macbook Air. I just installed Boinc/WCG a week ago on new Mac Minis...the MBA is from December.

I'm a Windows person so I really don't know how to tune Macs...any help would be great! Just let me know exactly where to go to make changes or give you info.
----------------------------------------

[Jun 6, 2021 2:20:03 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
mbotmiller
Cruncher
Joined: Dec 1, 2005
Post Count: 47
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Hi and thanks. I'd love for you to tell me how to make any memory changes in the OS. I have Boinc/WCG set to use 100% of RAM and CPUs and again, I get either 3 or 4 threads. Never more than 4. That's on 5 Mac Minis and 1 Macbook Air. I just installed Boinc/WCG a week ago on new Mac Minis...the MBA is from December.

I'm a Windows person so I really don't know how to tune Macs...any help would be great! Just let me know exactly where to go to make changes or give you info.
Hmmm, changing the BOINC/WCG memory setting was the main change that I made on my system. The only other thing I can think of is the version of the BOINC agent that you're running - did you download it from the Word Community Grid site or directly from the BOINC site? The version I'm running is the "Apple Mac (64-bit Intel and Apple Silicon)" 7.16.14 version downloaded directly from BOINC's site: https://boinc.berkeley.edu/dl/boinc_7.16.14_macOSX_universal.zip
[Jun 6, 2021 4:30:00 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
ericinboston
Senior Cruncher
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Post Count: 248
Status: Offline
Project Badges:
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: When will MCM support Apple Mac M1 chips natively?

Hmmm, changing the BOINC/WCG memory setting was the main change that I made on my system. The only other thing I can think of is the version of the BOINC agent that you're running - did you download it from the Word Community Grid site or directly from the BOINC site? The version I'm running is the "Apple Mac (64-bit Intel and Apple Silicon)" 7.16.14 version downloaded directly from BOINC's site: https://boinc.berkeley.edu/dl/boinc_7.16.14_macOSX_universal.zip



I downloaded it from WCG. As of today it is 7.14.5. I'm not sure what the version was I downloaded last week but it is clearly a bit behind your 7.16.14. There are holes in their wiki tracking the version history. :( 7.14.5 came out likely late 2018 or early 2019.

I just checked all the Mac M1s last night...if I set BOINC to 100% RAM usage, I sometimes get 4 threads. Anything less than 100% RAM goes to 3 threads or sometimes even 2. There's nothing else on these Macs...I simply set them up within 5 mins, set the power saver/screensaver so the machine would run 24x7 uninterrupted, and installed WCG, and let it run.

https://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/Release_Notes
----------------------------------------

[Jun 7, 2021 4:07:39 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Posts: 19   Pages: 2   [ 1 2 | Next Page ]
[ Jump to Last Post ]
Post new Thread