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So, what has the grid actually DONE?

Since the survey came out, I've been listening carefully to what people who are not running grid software say to me. One thing that came up a few times was the lack of demonstrable benefit of the grid. They want to know that the work the grid volunteers did on past projects was actually of some USE. Maybe that information is there, in a not-too-scientific form, but it's certainly not easy to find. Information about past projects on the Research -> Completed Research page all seems to be an archive of the project information that was set up to promote the project when it launched. It's all "This project WILL do <x>", not "This project HAS done <x>".

If the WCG team has time to concentrate on gaining new crunchers, rather than lining up new projects, then maybe someone could talk to the project scientists and try to use past successes as a way to better promote what we do. Just providing information about what tools we gave the scientists is not enough. People want to know what the scientists did with those tools, that the science really was of benefit to humanity, and that that science could not have been done without the grid. That may be a tall order, but must be worth a shot.

Just my 2p'th.
[Mar 24, 2013 11:30:21 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
CandymanWCG
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

I couldn't agree more! Sure, shiny badges keep the competition going, but I have also asked myself and have been asked by people to which I tell about the WCG: "can I see what is the actual benefit?" Unfortunately, I didn't have a straight answer or I leaned more towards "not really, but it's surely of use and it serves a higher purpose". As one can imagine, that doesn't really compel people to join. It needs to grow on you rather than be a "love at first sight" kind of relationship. And please, don't tell me about all the "interesting articles" threads being posted in the forums, that's not what Apis is saying either, from what I can understand.

And don't get me wrong either, I am already sold on the idea of "crunching for humanity" or how I like to put it "help save ourselves", but I really think that Apis has a valid point and hope that someone will or already has taken it into account.

Cheers!
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Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world! - Albert Einstein



[Mar 24, 2013 12:09:10 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Hypernova
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

The question asked by these non crunchers is a very fundamental one. It is the billion dollar question.

Should we invest money in "proven", "demonstrated" applied research or in more fundamental research that has "potential" for major discoveries.

Both should be financed.

The proven one simply because it can lead to improvements with more measurable short term reward. Applied research, industrial R&D, in general is financially more interesting but does not often generate major discoveries. It can lead to commercialy viable products and as such some real return on investment.

The really fundamental research is much more difficult to finance as nothing is guaranteed here. You start in one direction, end up in another. You want to answer one question and finally end up with a 100 questions to answer. The amount of money available has no relation with whatever can be discovered or the size of success.
Many discoveries were made by doing some research in a direction that was considered absurd, but because the researchers were simply free to do whatever they liked. And when there is a real discovery, then nobody has any clue how to make money out of it, and it may take 10, 20 years before something "useful" comes out of it. Because this type of science is difficult to finance the Grid can be a very useful contributor and help make available computer power to such research.

Look at the flagship projects for science of the EU. They will invest a billion Euros in the Blue Brain project, to create a full scale computer model of the human brain, but based on the complete knowledge that biology has of the brain. This project has a lot of detractors that consider it a pure waste of money. But I applaud this investment because it has an enormous potential for discoveries about our brain. And yes It can fail. But until you have not done it and tested it you will not know.

If we all here would like to put our effort and money only in things that are "sure", we probably would still be still in caverns hurling stones at the wild animals outside.
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[Mar 24, 2013 12:24:31 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

OK, I might ask the question about the longest running DC project going and what has that 'done'? Have we found any little green men? No! So why ask stupid questions? Can anyone name me any project that has done something to benefit mankind?..........other than those with shares in power companies who benefit from all the electricity used............Paaaaah, for get it and crunch on. wink
[Mar 24, 2013 12:48:49 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
kateiacy
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

I agree with Apis that it would be helpful in motivating current crunchers and attracting new ones if it was easy to spot actual scientific achievements on the WCG web page and/or in user accounts. A couple of projects that do that are GPUgrid and Einstein.

On the GPUgrid user account page, there's a little box that shows what the cruncher has contributed to recent publications. It looks like:
Contribution to scientific publications
3474th/4410 Buch et al, PNAS 2011 methods
6099th/9662 Buch et al, J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2011 cancer
2539th/5798 Sadiq et al, PNAS 2012 hiv

On the front page of the Einstein web page, there are links to recently submitted publications, whose names show what was actually accomplished (e.g. "Einstein@Home discovery of 24 pulsars in the Parkes Multi-beam Pulsar Survey").

WCG has real results in completed and in-progress sciences, but indeed they are hard to find. For example, I love the SN2S web page (but had to hunt for it). Here's their "Results" link:
http://www.schistosomaonline.com.br/index.php...le&id=61&Itemid=2
Thanks to our crunching, they already are testing 18 promising candidate drugs in the laboratory, and have 16 more they will be testing soon. And, all the data that we produced is available for downloading by anyone.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by kateiacy at Mar 24, 2013 3:07:01 PM]
[Mar 24, 2013 2:53:15 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

....and has the discovery of these pulsars benefited mankind in any way? nononononononononono! entirely wasted effort!
[Mar 24, 2013 3:07:36 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
CandymanWCG
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

Scribe, I think you're taking this to the extreme. All we're saying here is that we could have real visible updates in the current, but (maybe even more importantly) also in the completed projects about the compounds that WCG has helped find or even the name of the medicine/cure available for a disease as a direct result of our donated time and the praised work of all the scientists involved. We're not asking for the quantification of how many people will benefit from those results, but a clear, transparent and easy to find way to be in touch with all the "interesting articles" and real world results of the years of CPU/GPU time of crunching.

It's by all accounts NOT a stupid question.
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Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world! - Albert Einstein



[Mar 24, 2013 3:19:17 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Dataman
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

....and has the discovery of these pulsars benefited mankind in any way? nononononononononono! entirely wasted effort!

Read your history, Scribe. Many of the scientific breakthroughs in the last 200 years in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics occurred due to research in an entirely different discipline. I am glad you have the superior intellect to determine, in advance, whether or not research is "entirely wasted", Scribe. I do not and will continue my meager efforts. The rest of us are not worthy to stand in your intellectual shadow. wink
cowboy
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dataman at Mar 24, 2013 4:12:59 PM]
[Mar 24, 2013 4:08:06 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

.......Many of the scientific breakthroughs in the last 200 years in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics occurred due to research in an entirely different discipline.....

Yup, such as how to remove 70,000+ individuals from the face of the earth in an instant, ask the inhabitants of Hiroshima or Nagasaki if they like these 'breakthoughs'.
[Mar 24, 2013 5:18:41 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: So, what has the grid actually DONE?

Thanks for all the comments, everyone. kateiacy seems to have understood me best -- it just needs a little better advertising of the positive work of the grid. I agree that many people will just do it because it's science (that's me, after all), but the harder-to-reach ones need a bit more convincing, and the web site could do a better job of promoting results (especially after we've being going for so long now).

If you don't catch people the first time they look at the web site, you stand very little chance of catching them later. I'm just trying to help catch a few more, that's all.
[Mar 24, 2013 5:36:38 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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