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Forum: Suggestions / Feedback
Thread: A new business model for WCG |
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Thread Status: Active Total posts in this thread: 11
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hnapel
Advanced Cruncher Netherlands Joined: Nov 17, 2004 Post Count: 82 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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Hi
Spotting trends in the industry is important and therefore I wish to explain to you an observation that affects running your project on modern day devices. First of all there is the decline in desktop PC prevalence so you must find a strategy to turn to other hardware such as tablets to run the research projects, this may prove difficult as they are generally mobile and run on batteries. This also brings me to the main point: power. Power is everything, the current paradigm isn't like running a computer at the highest possible clock frequency to get the fastest possible result but rather how much computing tasks can be run given a certain amount of energy. This has lead mayor chipmaker Intel to develop processors that can run on different clock frequencies and in combination with operating systems activate more or less cores on demand. This has consequences for running WCG, since if you run this project it generally tries to consume as much processing time as it can get, it does not just use any otherwise 'wasted' computing power, it maxes out the processor and makes it run on all cores with the highest possible clock frequency. Granted: it does so at low operating system scheduler priority so any real user tasks will not likely be affected, but it affects the overall power consuption negatively. I am ready to agree that the decision to run a project benefits humanity as a whole, but the point that it only uses otherwise wasted resources is no longer true. One of the reasons I currently run the Clean Energy project 2 exclusively is that it's the only project that allows to configure the number of work units that is running at any given time, this should become an option for all projects to make the choice how much resources to devote to WCG more flexible. You may argue that it is possible to tune the resource use with other settings like CPU percentage via the BOINC manager, however my experience with this is not good: it causes the processor to go up and down in CPU resource allocations in an undulating fashion around the treshold. Please let me know how the project will cope with these challenges in the not so far future, Greetings, Harm ten Napel (hnapel) |
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nanoprobe
Master Cruncher Classified Joined: Aug 29, 2008 Post Count: 2998 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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First of all there is the decline in desktop PC prevalence so you must find a strategy to turn to other hardware such as tablets to run the research projects Can't speak for others but as for me, never gonna happen. I build my own machines to crunch with so I can build them to exactly my specs. IMHO tablets will probably never be a significant player in the crunch game because that is not what they are designed to do. I currently run the Clean Energy project 2 exclusively is that it's the only project that allows to configure the number of work units that is running at any given time, this should become an option for all projects to make the choice how much resources to devote to WCG more flexible. This is already an option. The newer BOINC clients, 7.0.40 and above, allow you to dedicate your resources any way you'd like by using an app_config.xml file in the project folder. You can even run tasks from non WCG projects along side WCG projects if you'd like. I tested this by running 4 different projects (WCG, Simap, Skynet and Asteroids@Home) at the same time on an i7-860. Dedicated 2 cores to each project by placing a properly constructed app_config.xml file in each project folder. Worked like a charm.
In 1969 I took an oath to defend and protect the U S Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and Domestic. There was no expiration date.
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Hello hnapel,
You are right that there are an increasing number of devices that are not hooked up to the electrical grid. BOINC defaults to not running when on battery power. But there is another factor that has always been present. The power used to construct a computer is non-trivial. If our metric is to be utility gained over power expended, the wasted energy when a computer is disposed of has to be considered. This is an enormous amount. Back toward the end of the 1990's, I was surprised when I learned that, at that time, the new power-saving features being incorporated into computer systems cost more power than they saved before the systems were junked. But they made people feel good. Considering the new disposable computing systems being created, I feel sure, even without seeing the figures, that everything we can do to increase the power used on humanitarian computing will end up far in the 'too little' column rather than in the 'too much' column. Lawrence |
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Coleslaw
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Mar 29, 2007 Post Count: 1343 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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I would like to know your source for the trend of decreased desktops is. I know that most PC sales are businesses. Last I checked, most businesses are NOT replacing their systems with tablets/phones/phablets and any other combination. However, some are replaced with laptops that tend to be placed into docking stations. However, that last sentence is still a small portion. If you are speaking of home users, I find that many people are buying those other devices in conjunction with the desktops that they already have. With a down economy, the choice is easy to add extra cool devices then to replace the ones that still serve their purpose. Should WCG look to support new devices? Abolutely. Other projects have already heard the calling and started porting apps over to ARM processors. There are projects supporting Linux/ARM and Android/ARM. This includes the Raspberry Pi devices. WCG has mentioned future interest in these devices but are focused on GPU's right now. You will also find that WCG aren't the pioneers of leading new use of hardware.
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twilyth
Master Cruncher US Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Post Count: 2130 Status: Offline Project Badges: 
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The newer BOINC clients, 7.0.40 and above, allow you to dedicate your resources any way you'd like by using an app_config.xml file in the project folder. You can even run tasks from non WCG projects along side WCG projects if you'd like. Nanoprobe: I was wondering, although this is off topic, can the app_config file tell boinc to discriminate between idle and non-idle states? For example, can I tell it to use all 4 cores and 8 threads for HCC when idle but only use 5 threads when the computer is in use? Thanks. If not, I think this would be a good feature to add. Also, making these feature available through a GUI would be a huge improvement as well.   |
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nanoprobe
Master Cruncher Classified Joined: Aug 29, 2008 Post Count: 2998 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Nanoprobe: I was wondering, although this is off topic, can the app_config file tell boinc to discriminate between idle and non-idle states? For example, can I tell it to use all 4 cores and 8 threads for HCC when idle but only use 5 threads when the computer is in use? Thanks. I don't know if that can be done with an app_config file. The boinc client knows when the computer is idle or in use but I don't know how the app_config file could be set up to detect that. Maybe it's something you could ask the developer on the BOINC forums.
In 1969 I took an oath to defend and protect the U S Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and Domestic. There was no expiration date.
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Rickjb
Veteran Cruncher Australia Joined: Sep 17, 2006 Post Count: 666 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Coleslaw:
I would like to know your source for the trend of decreased desktops is. Mercury Research Q4 2012 CPU numbers out: "In the fourth quarter of 2012 the overall PC processor market declined six percent compared to the third quarter." (I haven't looked for the original Mercury Research report). |
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Coleslaw
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Mar 29, 2007 Post Count: 1343 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Your basing a "trend" off of a quarterly result? Still hardly quantifies the implication that desktops are on the out. Again, businesses purchase most PC's and last I checked, they have an extremely low inception rate of tablets and phones replacing a PC. Look at the numbers further and you will find that the likelihood is cutback over all. Not choice in platform.
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
IMHO tablets will probably never be a significant player in the crunch game because that is not what they are designed to do. I tend to agree. The idea of 'suitability-to-purpose' is lost amid the popularity of NDD (non-desktop devices) like tablets, smartphones, and the likes or combinations/hybrids thereof. Crunching was designed for the desktop and the desktop proved fit for the job. Can we say the same thing for NDD? I wouldn't count on it. How about the idea of grids addressing the NDD, doesn't that make sense? Well, the NDD were built for other-than-crunching purposes. Non-crunching apps for those NDD will make sure of that, eventually, if not already. The way to go for grids, in my view, is to consider the idea of making an NDD that is made specifically for crunching. I'd buy that NDD for crunching, and continue to use smartphones/tablets for what these smartphones/tablets were designed and therefore suitable for (and crunching is not one of them).... can the app_config file tell boinc to discriminate between idle and non-idle states? For example, can I tell it to use all 4 cores and 8 threads for HCC when idle but only use 5 threads when the computer is in use? Thanks. If not, I think this would be a good feature to add. Also, making these feature available through a GUI would be a huge improvement as well. I would like to think that the app_config is the spearhead pointing in the right direction for BOINC: user-control of execution of WUs. As long as that direction is kept in mind, all of the above quoted features/capabilities has the foundation to come into fruition as grid-computing evolves.; ; andzgridPost#955 ; [Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Feb 25, 2013 12:33:56 PM] |
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Coleslaw
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Mar 29, 2007 Post Count: 1343 Status: Offline Project Badges:
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Tablets are growing amongst crunchers though. And as tablets continue to get replaced, many of them will wind up in farms or pharms (as I like to call them the phone farms). The new contributors may not be drawn in by tablet processing, but the dedicated crunchers tend to use the resources they have available to maximize their contribution. If the energy efficiency per result is there and the up front cost is in the right zone, crunchers will use them.
----------------------------------------Edit: grammar This also goes for phones Edit2+3: Thanks Sek  [Edit 3 times, last edit by Coleslaw at Mar 1, 2013 4:56:55 PM] |
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