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sk..
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Re: New Badges?

Ack.
I can see how a uni or business might want and use a cert, but this can already be done. Perhaps a desktop background or screensaver for the average cruncher, but again already doable.
"The end of the badge system" is unclear if taken out of the context of new badges, I just meant the end of new badge levels; potentially no 5year, 10year or whatever might have been.

I guess it's been over a year since there was a 2year blue badge. Now the top user gets through 7years per day going by RAC. The 50th top user gets through 100days per day; a blue badge every week.
I'm not that high for RAC here; 260th (about 30days/day), but even I could reach blue in 24days. A 5year badge from scratch would only take 3months. Not much of a challenge.
A couple of years from now and you could reasonable expect to half the time for many people, and within 5years many will be doing 3 or 4 times the work. I'm presently working on 5 WCG Projects, 3 of which have been Blue for some time. For those without the equipment to reach 10years or 100years, they can get a few badges for each project and mainly crunch for the projects they are most interested in; which is sort of what I and many others do anyway.
[Oct 11, 2010 1:01:06 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Hypernova
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Re: New Badges?

If we look at badges as a target or a motivator that brings some fun and colours in our crunching world, then the future badges must be tailored so that it is a challenging target but not impossible for every type of cruncher.
Due to the very large spectrum of crunchers (from the business use laptop that crunches only as a screen-saver to the big datacenter with tens of thausands of threads) I am convinced we must have have a large spectrum of badges.
When I started I had only one machine with a Intel Quadcore 9770, and that machine was also for personal use. Looking at my stats the first year I did in total over the first 12 months period 2.5 million WCG points and 3'700 results returned. At that time a sapphire badge was very challenging and in fact some projects ended before I could even reach silver, or ruby.
Now the 3'700 results are done in four days the 2.5 million in less than five days, and sapphire is in 6 days. It is clear that sapphire badge is very nice to have (it remains symbolic, to me at least) but now the intermediate steps fly much too fast.
Nevertheless the sapphire badge will still be very challenging for many crunchers in the coming years and so it will remain a motivating badge.

If we add other badges that cover (as an ex.) say: 5 - 10 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100 - 150 etc. years, (per project or overall) then there will be enough badges so that any cruncher will have a next target to aim and that will be feasible if projects last long enough or supply enough WUs.
The cruncher that has set as a long term target for him like the sapphire badge, he will not be perturbated by say a diamond at 50 years. It is not in his playfield and out of his plan. But the cruncher that is at 25 and has the power will find that target challenging and motivating.
It is important that badges are at regular intervals but adapted to crunching power so that the motivation remains strong whatever the situation.
In fact it is not an easy task to decide how many badges, what span and what intervals, as we have to consider the evolution of the crunching capability of newer processors. If we want to avoid to rediscuss this issue one year after new badges have been released then we have to consider a large enough spectrum that go far away. Probably up to 10'000 years if we want to have the big datacenters part of the badge game for the years to come.

P.S.
And yes for those of you who wondered, my target is on the 10'000 one. biggrin
Cmon just kidding! wink
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[Oct 11, 2010 2:21:05 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
sk..
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Re: New Badges?

Well said Hypernova,
Just hope the techs take note of these discussions. After all, we are raising concerns for the right reason; we want to make this more fun, more interesting and more challenging for everyone; single core crunchers through to the 1000+ system crunchers.
I know this has been raised before, but I still like the idea of using the elements as icons, or perhaps just their one, two or three letter nomenclature on the icons. Possibly for one overall years crunched badge, perhaps for individual project years, or even for interim days up to an 8th badge; add an H for 91days for example, He for 92, Li for 93days... If it was decided that a 10 year badge would be the top one, then just add Na for the 11th year...
Maybe their 8 groupings could be used as badge categories (there is only 7 badges to date):
Alkali metals, Alkeline earth metals, Transition metals, Other metals, Non metals, Noble gases, Lanthanides, Actinides.
All old ground being recovered again, but if this is left for another year even the introduction of a 10year badge would see most people in the top 1000 being belatedly awarded several. The opportunity for a fun challenge would have passed many more crunchers.
[Oct 11, 2010 4:48:12 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
evilkats
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Re: New Badges?

SKGIVEN, your proposition is very sound. I like the idea of badges named after noble gases. Noble gases glow different color and we all know what color Neon and Argon gases give off. These badges will look awesome.


[Oct 11, 2010 5:29:30 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
GIBA
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Re: New Badges?

I like two ideas thinked times ago, when my thoughts was concentrated in became the new badges associated with scientific criterias (like the projects in WCG).

With this assumption, WCG could establish a solid criteria to implement new badges levels than just some gut feeling from anyone about how many years for each new level is applicable to use or not... and the name of the new badge levels could be something extracted from the multiple suggestions provided by many crunchers in WCG posts (gases, metals, minerals, rare chemicals elements, etc).

The first idea was that we could determine new badge levels based on the logarithm sequences (thinking in a base 2*n).

So, for example, with this new approach after the actual 2 years level limit, we could have new levels for: 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, and so on years.

The second idea was that we could determine new badge levels based on the Fibonacci sequence (the best in my opinion, due the link with the nature, which after frequently use "Pi" as a base to build itself, is frequently "Fibonaccian" too in many structural aspects).

So, for example, with this new approach, after the actual 2 years level limit, we could have new levels for: 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, and so on years.

Both methodologies have pros and cons, but both could help WCG solve the frequent question about how will be the new badge level in years...

cool idea peace good luck coffee
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[Oct 12, 2010 1:04:37 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: New Badges?

I think a badge system has to be very simple and yet flexible enough to grow as needed. The current one has the former attribute, but not the latter.

Remember also that badges can be earned differently depending on the project, as in the case of AfricanClimate.
[Oct 12, 2010 3:59:39 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
sk..
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Re: New Badges?

While simplicity has its merits, variety is more fun.
Using Fibonacci numbers is a great idea.
The existing system could be kept up until 2 years then different projects could use different number sequences:
Fibonacci (3, 5, 8, 13...)
Geometric (4, 8, 16, 32...)
Square numbers (4, 16, 25, 36...)
Triangular (3, 6, 10, 15...)

Very long projects could be Cubed (3, 9, 27, 81...)
Triangular numbers could be used for projects with big overheads (3, 6, 10, 15...)
Short or intermittent projects could be accommodated by arithmetic sequences (4, 6, 8, 10...)

A variety of primes could also be used; consecutive, Chen, circular, Einstein, Fortunate, Gaussian, Good, Happy, Higgs...
[Oct 12, 2010 10:58:47 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: New Badges?

Blah, blah, blah. Idea, speculation; comment; suggestion; good idea; bad idea; agree; disagree, simple, complex, blah, blah, blah ..........

1. The current badge system is not going to be changed.

2. It has taken 5+ years to create 2 sets of 3 badges each. It is easy to expect badges in bunches of 2 or 3.

3. Each badge will have its own colour so any new badges will not be a duplicate of an existing coloured badge. This rules out new badges of the colours yellow, silver/grey, green, blue, brown, red. That doesn't leave a lot of unused colours, especially since the icon for HFCC is already purple, dddt is black and white is the universal background. How you think WCG can create 5-10 new badges is beyond my comprehension.

4. No one at WCG is interested in creating a large number of badges. (see #3 above)

5. WCG is not interested in creating a badge that only a few will achieve (eg: review history to date)

6. The number 1 reason to not create ANY new badges is that it MIGHT encourage crunchers to hoard WU in order to get to 5 or 10 year levels. (see new beta WU release criteria)

In summary, as I have said before, feel free to propose ideas, speculate and comment, but do not for even a second think that your idea even begins to meet the criteria that WCG Admin is using to create new, if any, badges.

My suggestion is 2 new badges for 5 and 10 years in Amethyst and Turquoise with some outlining to make the HFCC badge work with Amethyst. We wait and see
[Oct 12, 2010 3:01:25 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: New Badges?

3. Each badge will have its own colour so any new badges will not be a duplicate of an existing coloured badge. This rules out new badges of the colours yellow, silver/grey, green, blue, brown, red. That doesn't leave a lot of unused colours, especially since the icon for HFCC is already purple, dddt is black and white is the universal background. How you think WCG can create 5-10 new badges is beyond my comprehension.


HFCC is purple on sapphire, but has other colors depending on the badge level, so this is not an issue. Purple background can still be used as amethyst. Even black can be used, in that case, the DDDT mosquito can be white, like this:


[Oct 12, 2010 3:32:43 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: New Badges?

The outline is standard colour, the puppets were done in alternate colours as per the ribbon image, else in some combo's they'd be as hard to distinct as the Rice Sapphire.

As to the colors for the additional badges that were planned [2], a professional artist was engaged. Never heard a word since, but when me amateur tries, it's hard to keep one distinct one from the other, guessing that caused an unresolved rethink.

Until then, no matter what, I'll crunch 99.9% at WCG on CPU... it's the causes and not the badge addiction that is driving most, regardless.
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[Oct 12, 2010 4:18:49 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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