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sk..
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Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

Does Linux give increased points for being faster than windows?

I kept hearing that Linux is about 50% faster for HCC, than on Windows. When I enquired o/t nanoprobe suggested we do get through 50% more HCC tasks using Linux than using windows, but the points were about the same and sometimes less for Linux.

If Linux is faster it should reward appropriately.
You may feel that the points are not that important, but I think they are; the points system is the measuring stick of performance and thousands of crunchers try to get the best performance, so if the measuring stick is broken it needs to be fixed.

Although I largely understand the Boinc/WCG credit system, and some of it’s shortcomings, this is one I only recently became aware of and it concerns me. Am I getting the picture wrong or is there an elephant in the room?
If the system is inadequate and other projects do not adhere to it, the continual use of a defunct, not-fit-for-purpose points system undermines WCG.

I’m not running Linux, and rarely do, but if I did I would expect a fair points return for the effort.

What do you think?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by skgiven at Sep 3, 2010 3:33:30 PM]
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nanoprobe
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

I have done some limited testing using Linux 64 and Win7 Pro 64 on the same machine running the same projects. Linux crunches faster (from my tests about 25-30% faster) but you do get awarded less points. The faster speeds mean more gets done and the point differential may not be that much given the same amount of time involved. I didn't get into it that far. For me, I'd rather have the faster speeds. I'm not doing this for the points.
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anhhai
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

I recently converted a machine over to linux too. I am some what okay with the fact that linux gets less points per result because it work is done faster. However, I am mad that linux gets less points per hour of work also (it is particular bad if you have the 32 bit version). Now if you are doing some of the zero redundancy projects, then you tend to get about the same per hour of work you do.

That being said, I have to admit logically, I would have to say if linux does work faster then it should rewarded more points. However at the same time, how can we determine the correct amount of points to reward? We can't say linux will always process work 50% faster (made up a number), so give it twice the amount of points per hour (if windows takes 2 hrs, and linux takes 1, then you need to double the points). The reason why we can't is because the performance difference between linux and windows varies for every project. HCC maybe 40% faster but c4cw may only be 30% faster (made up these numbers, didn't want to go search for my post where I did a comparison).
If the WU from a done linux machine can be compared to WU done on a windows machine for validation then we can do comparison there. However, most windows user will even more angry because sometimes they will get 100pts for a WU (when compare with another windows machine) but sometimes they will get only 50 pts (when compare with a linux machine).
Now for zero redundancy, they can actually improve it here. The little performance test that they run to determine pts per hour is currently probably a standardize test (guessing here). They can make it more specific, the test should be a small snippet of a normal WU for the project. This way they can a more accurate feel of how the machine will perform for their WU
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

IMHO, each WU should have an "intrinsic" value in points, regardless of CPU, OS or time it took to crunch. Some BOINC projects use this rule. So, if computer A crunches twice the amount of WUs than computer B, for whatever (valid) reason, it should get twice the points. As simple as that.

In my case, I'm perfectly happy with the badge incentive, and that has nothing to do with points. I find it more fair (fairer? my english is not that good) but that's another endless and controversial discussion (time vs points, not my english tongue).
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anhhai
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

having each WU get a set number of points (based on the project) can't always be done. This is because for some projects WUs vary in length. For example, for the HFCC project, some of them takes 4 hrs, some of them take more then 10. This is on the same system, so it wouldn't be good to award a fix point per project.
However, it could work for c4cw. They seem to have 3 types of WUs and for each type the amount of time are very similar.

Lets be honest though, there is no 100% perfect point system. People will always have soemthing to complain about.
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JmBoullier
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

Before C4CW I was using HCC for all measurements because it was the project with the least variable WU durations. However they are still variable, and also the granted results are affected by the wingman's claim.
Therefore it was visible that Linux is not very well paid but some doubts were still possible.
For no-redundancy projects their highly variable durations were not convenient for cross-platforms performance comparison, but regarding credits it was already obvious that Linux WUs were really badly granted.

With C4CW and its almost constant WUs we have the perfect measurement material and then the result of such measurements is terrible!
All WUs for a given target having the same difficulty they should logically be granted the same amount of credits whatever the client's configuration, HW or SW. Only the CPU time should vary.
As it is shown below this is partially true: for all my Windows devices WUs are granted more or less the same credits, although the claims are very different between HT devices and not-HT devices (as expected).
But when it comes to Linux granted credits are 34 % lower in Linux versus Windows, although the Linux device and the Windows device running in the same Q6600 are claiming moe or less the same credits.
           Average->  CPU Time Claimed Granted Clmd/Hr Grntd/Hr  Delta G/C
Target01
P4HT XP 32-bit 6,96 49,08 40,18 7,06 5,78 -18,13%
EeePC Windows 7 32-bit 10,17 49,07 40,47 4,82 3,98 -17,53%
Q6600 XP 32-bit 1,78 32,55 40,58 18,31 22,83 24,65%
Q6600 Ubuntu 64-bit 1,09 34,42 26,58 31,60 24,41 -22,76%
Ubuntu/Windows Q6600 -38,73% 5,73% -34,49%


Edit: Changed header "Delta" to "Delta G/C" (i.e. Granted vs Claimed)
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Team--> Decrypthon -->Statistics/Join -->Thread
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by JmBoullier at Sep 4, 2010 9:15:17 AM]
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TimAndHedy
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

My HCC crunching is entirely done under Linux. I can definitely see how low the points are.

At this point TeamHedy is pretty much us, so looking at the Team Competition stats for HCC points vs HCC results shows the underscoring.
While I can't guarantee the other teams are using Windows, the odds are they are. 178 per result is way below average.

I care about getting things done, so I think the points structure should be guiding people to the most efficient hardware and SOFTWARE.



HCC Points
5 Vulture Central III 85,057
6 MyOnlineTeam 77,959
7 BRASIL - BRAZIL@GRID 77,213
8 UK 67,170
9 TeamHedy 53,458

HCC Results
4 Vulture Central III 311
5 TeamHedy 300
6 MyOnlineTeam 292
7 BRASIL - BRAZIL@GRID 274
8 UK 235

Points Per Result Average
Vulture Central III 273
MyOnlineTeam 266
BRASIL - BRAZIL@GRID 281
UK 285
TeamHedy 178
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by TimAndHedy at Sep 4, 2010 3:01:07 AM]
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KerSamson
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

Hello Jean,
I agree with the first part of your observation.
The same WU seems to bring less points in comparison to the running time for Linux based systems than for Windows based systems.
However, if I understand properly the last column of your small table, a Linux based system should normally earn more points per running hours than a Windows based system. Finally, crunching with Linux brings more credits (or did I misunderstand your analysis?).
The delta you noticed between Linux and XP-32 is very close to the delta I reported around three years ago between XP-64 and XP-32. XP-64 based systems seem to be considered as regular "overclaimer".
Despite of the general impression, the conclusion should only based on the total points earned by a system per day.
According to your table, Linux based systems seem to earn a little bit more points per day than Windows based systems.
Have a nice week-end !
Amicalement,
Yves
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PS: With other words, the computational Windows overhead seems to be "honored" like the effective computation. wink
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JmBoullier
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

However, if I understand properly the last column of your small table, a Linux based system should normally earn more points per running hours than a Windows based system. Finally, crunching with Linux brings more credits (or did I misunderstand your analysis?).
When the performance improvement is great like for HCC or C4CW, yes the daily points maybe slightly better under Linux than under Windows, but only slightly. But when the performance benefit is smaller like for FAAH or HFCC the daily points of a Linux device can show a loss versus Windows, although more work has been produced.

To complement my previous table here is another table based on numbers in the previous one. I think numbers on the last line will not need additional comments:
Daily production       WUs     Points
Q6600 XP 32-bit 54,01 2191,39
Q6600 Ubuntu 64-bit 88,15 2343,03
Ubuntu/Windows +63,21% +6,92%

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by JmBoullier at Sep 16, 2010 11:35:54 PM]
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Sekerob
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Re: Points system underpayment for Linux despite faster result turnover

Funny, that's plus or minus what my quad RAC went up going from W7-64 to Linux-64 and when running C4CW only it was nearer 200+. I've explained elsewhere what I did v.v. the client version, since the inflated claiming only leads to being more frequently regarded as a high outlier. Now it's often when meeting with a high claimer, getting significant bonus and when meeting a low claimer, the normal average, rarely less. Things we do to play the system, legit. :P

Meantime, more credits for free on a free OS.
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