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TimAndHedy
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Credit?

How does this work? The granted amount is less than both claimed.

I did not believe that was possible?

Result Name App Version Number Status Sent Time Time Due /
Return Time CPU Time (hours) Claimed/ Granted BOINC Credit
X0000082361150200702131540_ 1-- 608 Valid 6/3/10 15:37:50 6/3/10 21:25:45 0.82 22.1 / 21.2
X0000082361150200702131540_ 0-- 608 Valid 6/3/10 15:37:48 6/4/10 00:02:11 0.97 30.4 / 21.2

Is this the answer(from the FAQ)? Did this go into effect?

After doing some more research, by Guess is that it did not. Most low results equal the low value claimed.

As a result, we are going to change how the 2nd part of the process works. Instead of selecting the credit that is closest to its history, we will average the recent average history's for the two computers. We have been simulating the impact of this for the past couple of days and it turns out that in a strong majority of cases the result cpu time * host recent average credit per cpu second is actually quite consistent between different computers even if their claimed credit are further apart. This is what we had hoped to see and as a result we will start to use this policy in the near future.


Credit Post from FAQ
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread?thread=6105#120888
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by TimAndHedy at Jun 4, 2010 2:27:15 AM]
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knreed
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Re: Credit?

Both of the computers in that quorum have a history of claiming more credit than they are awarded. The average credit between the the claimed was large enough that the system used the historical average of granted credit per cpu sec to determine the amount of credit to award. Since both systems usually claim higher than what they are awarded, this value is lower than either computers claim.
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Former Member
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Re: Credit?

Is WCGs notoriously stingy credit levels becoming even more parsimonious?
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bieberj
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Re: Credit?

Short answer: No.

Over the long term, I usually see more, less or the same and a good balance of the being granted more credit than claimed versus less credit than claimed and usually come out even.
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Movieman
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Re: Credit?

Short answer: No.

Over the long term, I usually see more, less or the same and a good balance of the being granted more credit than claimed versus less credit than claimed and usually come out even.

Over the long term I see way less then what is claimed and in many cases I can't even figure out the logic of the awards.
The post above does shed some light on this but still "screwey" for lack of a better word.
A machine claims what it claims. There must be some logic behind that claim as the user isn't influencing it.
I run bone stock versions of win XP 64 bit and Win 7 64 Ultimate so unless my particular OS's are all getting together and manipulating what they claim I'm at a loss to understand why a good portion of the time I get much less than I claim.
There is also the continuing factor that the top machines get penalized much more than the slower ones do.
I've seen many times where someone with a older machine that may have 80+ processes running on it will claim say 30 points for 5hours work, I'll claim 60 for 3 hours work, WCG will read my result as an outliar( I hate that term) and award me the same 30 points it did to the other machine based on the assumption that the older slower machine must be right.
By whose definition does the older slower machine always have to be taken as the correct one?
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Former Member
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Re: Credit?

MM - there are two factors of your machines themselves that are contributing to the "penalize" situation. First, a 64 bit OS will run the BOINC benchmarks faster than 32 bit but seeing as the real applications themselves are 32 bit it creates a disparity right out of the gate. The second factor is that you (in most cases, except your MC system) are running with HT on. Now we all know that HT on is overall more productive than HT off but if you compare the claimed credit on an i7-920 with HT on and them HT off you will see a disparity ... now this is the same machine running the same WUs ... which is *right*? For sure, I would agree if we looked at it and said ... HT being turned on takes more electricity so it should be awarded more points but them someone else says my P4 is a huge electricity pig so I deserve more points. I guess what I'm getting at is there is always going to be disagreement based on whatever the focus of the point basis is.

I'm not saying it is right, just trying to help explain some of the factors involved in the calcs used today.

On to a generalized comment about points, not a direct response to MM's commets but more for general consumption
Seeing as we are all about doing the science and the points are just shiney bobbles anyway, I think WCG goes to too much effort to calculate and explain the points system. This in turn causes more questions on the forums than makes sense to me. I know there is a huge effort underway to revamp the entire BOINC pointing system but I wonder if it will be any easier for people to understand and any easier to explain to the people who can't get it on their own.
I would suggest picking a stock number of points per WU and call it a day. Sure, people would complain that they are getting "big" WUs and deserve more points but people are complaining about the points anyway and the more complicated the formula the more people question and distrust.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Jun 16, 2010 11:59:04 AM]
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Ingleside
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Re: Credit?

I would suggest picking a stock number of points per WU and call it a day. Sure, people would complain that they are getting "big" WUs and deserve more points but people are complaining about the points anyway and the more complicated the formula the more people question and distrust.

This method could work, if there had been any good colleration between wu and cpu-time. If example all HCC-wu's in a particular computer takes 2.5 hours and all FAH-wu's on same computer takes 5 hours, giving example 50 to HCC and 100 to FAH would work.

But, in practice all FAH-wu's doesn't take 5 hours on the same computer, instead there's large variations. Looking on my most resent WCG-results from the same computer, I've got:


avg. - min - max - diff. - project
2.64 - 2.48 - 2.89 - 1.16x - HCC (59 results)
5.19 - 2.57 - 6.56 - 2.55x - CMD2 (30 results)
5.72 - 3.81 - 8.88 - 2.33x - FAAH (27 results)
6.28 - 4.56 - 8.83 - 1.94x - HPF2 (90 results)
6.97 - 2.99 - 11.32 - 3.79x - HFCC (227 results)


Only for HCC is the variation so small that a fixed credit per wu would maybe be a possibility, but for the rest the variation is roughly 2x or higher, much too large variation to give a fixed credit per wu.

Also, with fixed-cputime projects like Rice, it would be a really bad idea to give a fixed credit for a wu, since someone running on an old P2-233 MHz and someone running with a highly-overclocked i7 at 4+ GHz will both use 7 hours on such a wu, but the i7 will do maybe 50x the useful work than the p2. If both the p2 and the i7 gets the same "credit" for this work, it will be very unfair for the i7 that has done much more useful work than the p2.
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"I make so many mistakes. But then just think of all the mistakes I don't make, although I might."
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Movieman
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Re: Credit?

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Movieman at Jun 16, 2010 7:59:15 PM]
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Ingleside
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Re: Credit?


And this shows no result-info...
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"I make so many mistakes. But then just think of all the mistakes I don't make, although I might."
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sk..
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Re: Credit?

https - You cant link to something only you can see, ie your tasks.
We all have our own examples, so we get the picture.
As I said elsewhere, I think it is down to Boinc to get all the projects to use the same credit systems. I think credit should be down to GFlops crunched, rather than Wattage or time spent dwelling! We get awarded badges for time as is. As for per task, I have run tasks for over 350h and other tasks for 8min. Not a good system!
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