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Sekerob
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

Yes, the positions are said to get lighter the further we get into the project. Consequently as-is, more positions will get computed in and the chance increasing that the 60%/6hr mark will be passed i.e. results computing the full positions content.

BTW, obviously the on-the-spot is to be understood as finishing the position at hand at those boundaries.

cheers
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[Nov 25, 2009 10:26:18 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Mysteron347
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

My interpretation always has been that the processing required per position will decrease as the project progresses.

The batches have no apparent pattern in size (see links in the Project progress page)

I'd suggest that as the actual analysis gets easier, then number of positions per parent unit will be increased to maintain the 6-hr processing time criterion.

Hence, the problem won't solve itself. If the parent batch size was to remain the same and the processing gets easier, then this would be equivalent of moving the wall out so that fewer processors hit it. But that's like solving a skills shortage by making the qualifications easier to obtain for the same effort - a politician's solution.

It might be fascinating to check the 'later batches speed-up' theory by moving a small later batch earlier into the schedule - but I'd venture that would really only serve to satisfy academic curiosity.
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Sekerob
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

I don't follow and maybe you're mixing up batch size with result size. I think an initial parent holds all positions for a specific target, at least I don't remember reading about tihs. If more positions finish, more parents will finish in either less than 6 or 12 hours. If there are less children generated from 6 or 12 hours hit-the wall parents, these too will more probably finish in their 6-12 hour limit, or? Which might be a point in time when the times are moved to 7 or 8 hours in order to increase the project mean run time, which with the 4 hours was 3 hours and with the 6 hours works out as 4.5 hours.

Yes, it would just be a playground event to grid test batches that are scheduled to run much later in the project.
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[Nov 25, 2009 6:07:33 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

hmm, now I had me first 12 hour parent job i.e. getting past 60% at 6 hours, and then encountering position(s) that took more to not be able to complete the remain 40% in the next 6 hours:

CMD2_ 0174-2DK5_ A.clustersOccur-2OU7_ A.clustersOccur_ 18_ 0-- 1112084 Pending Validation 12/1/09 17:33:16 12/3/09 15:44:54 12.01 216.9 / 0.0

Now is hoping that the wingjob [reads rotten] also makes it to 12 hours, else allot of redundant positions have to be redone in a child quorum... Will update, whatever comes out.
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JmBoullier
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

No, the best option is that your wingman completes the job in less than 12 hours, so only the positions that your device could not process will have to be redistributed.
If he is also exceeding 12 hours there is a 50 % probability that he computed less than you and there would be even more positions to redistribute.
Edit: OK, I just reread your post once more and I understand that you were addressing minimum redundant redistribution.

By the way, referring to your post on Nov 25 I do not think that a parent WU holds all positions for a specific target, and that would be the meaning of the "18" in your CMD2_ 0174-2DK5_ A.clustersOccur-2OU7_ A.clustersOccur_ 18_ 0 WU.
But it would be nice if a tech could tell us who is right. I had the feeling that somebody detailed the naming structure sometime but I have not been able to find it back.

Cheers. Jean.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by JmBoullier at Dec 3, 2009 5:47:14 PM]
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Sekerob
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

You're right, think uplinger did, guess or close probably the nearest search term.

edit: found at least one hit on this https://secure.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/...ead,26542_offset,0#243109
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sekerob at Dec 3, 2009 5:58:43 PM]
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JmBoullier
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

Thanks for the link, Sek.
What I had in mind was a post from a member complaining that the WU names were too long and an answer probably by Uplinger. But the complaint has probably been posted off topic or with a not meaningful enough title and I could not find it back.

Edit: I have found the thread I was looking for:
Could long HCMD2 WU names be abbreviated please?
As one can see it was correctly titled (sorry Rickjb) but I had probably excluded Suggestions/Feedback from my previous searches.
Unfortunately the post I have in mind which explains the naming structure is not in this thread... sad

Tant pis. Jean.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by JmBoullier at Dec 4, 2009 1:19:04 AM]
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robertmiles
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

Thanks knreed for the information.
It makes very well sense to me. However, I hope you do some performance matching. Otherwise you will see some results like this one:
CMD2_ 0139-2A5AA.clustersOccur-1RW6_ A.clustersOccur_ 122_ 1--  614 Valid  10/18/09 03:50:57 10/19/09 14:56:10  12.00 181.0 / 217.7 <--- mine
CMD2_ 0139-2A5AA.clustersOccur-1RW6_ A.clustersOccur_ 122_ 0-- 614 Valid 10/18/09 03:47:51 10/24/09 14:33:09 6.02 35.6 / 30.5


Well, I know this results is very unusual, but still it makes me wonder whether roughly 10 hours went down the drain for nothing.
Don't get me wrong, I believe this is a good system to handle the unpredictable running time of the WUs - just want to mentioned that such odd situations exist.


An idea to consider for this situation: Modify the validator so that it can use the same parent to help validate at least one child if the leftover number of structures is great enough.
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robertmiles
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

I don't follow and maybe you're mixing up batch size with result size. I think an initial parent holds all positions for a specific target, at least I don't remember reading about tihs. If more positions finish, more parents will finish in either less than 6 or 12 hours. If there are less children generated from 6 or 12 hours hit-the wall parents, these too will more probably finish in their 6-12 hour limit, or? Which might be a point in time when the times are moved to 7 or 8 hours in order to increase the project mean run time, which with the 4 hours was 3 hours and with the 6 hours works out as 4.5 hours.

Yes, it would just be a playground event to grid test batches that are scheduled to run much later in the project.


You could follow the lead of Rosetta@home and allow the participants to select how long their workunits are allowed to run.
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Sekerob
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Re: Parents, children, grandchildren WUs - how does it work?

Rosetta is into simulations and software design. They are interested in 30-40 thousand per target and see how the simulations group together for the best folds, so they can offer these incremental run times of 2 to 24 hours, there not being the absolute quorum issue to deal with. Does not compare to what HCMD2 does. OT, guess what happens if someone sets up a Results challenge... woosh... server overload, where 500,000 daily results ceiling overall is what the Techs are currently comfortable with.

As for the proposal to have a child run against the overage of the parent quorum, I'm sure the techs have thought of that and found no way to fit that into the current server work generation, feeder, validation logic. Already this idea was suggested on the forums, the issue being that it's probably once again a major coding/testing effort, and with the very fine CPU matching, probably a need to send that to a same family CPU to get a sufficiently equal result to match that parents overage... so few hands, so much to do.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sekerob at Dec 11, 2009 7:36:42 PM]
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