Information

[Jenn Kellams]

I am posting this in debate because I am sure people will have opinions....which is what I want to hear. Please READ THE ARTICLE and watch the video before making comment. I really want to know what your opinion is on this topic. The article link is first, then the video link. There is a warning at the beginning of the video. It is not a gross or violent video but you can hear a dog being shot and it's sad. I just wanted to warn you.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/05/11/a ... goes-viral

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUa ... goes-viral

[kittymomma]

I am still a little stunned by it all. I understand the need to uphold the law---but from what I could see--they didn't even give the people a chance to answer the door before knocking it down and shooting...


It breaks my heart that the dogs were shot and and killed or injured. Personally, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Even, worse, that the child was there and witnessed this...

[megamay]

omg that was scary and sickening and sad.

before I watched it I was thinking that the police need to be able to do what they need to do and protect themselves, but geez, it just seems like someone didnt do their due diligence in this case. I mean, the article said that the only thing they found was some paraphernalia and that they were basing this raid on an anonymous tip. Seems like they should have done more research and maybe been prepared with tranquilizer darts for the dogs or something.

I dont blame the swat guys for what they did. they have to assume the worst in order to stay safe. it just seems like they were not informed, maybe shouldnt have been there in the first place, maybe someone should have staked the people out or something

[lilmacgil]

My reply is...it's National Police Week. Hundreds upon hundreds of people gathering to remember all the law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty. While I in no way condone what was done, I will not condemn it because I was not there.

First...who says the information in the article is right? An anonymous tip does not mean it isn't a good tip that has been corroborated (which is a requirement for search warrants). And the beginning of the video shows the entry but not what the officers encountered when they entered the house. A lot of judgement and presumption based on sound bytes and media comment.

Cops can't win; we act and we're wrong, we don't act and we're wrong. Officers are being targeted and ambushed more and more, killed by the unknown. Go to www.odmp.org and read how many officers are killed on "routine" calls. Entering someone's house is a big UNKNOWN. It's not right for anyone to "monday-morning quarterback" an officer's split-second decisions. Shoot/don't shoot situations are just that because the alternative is death. There is no way to know what information they had before they went in and like it or not, they're not going to tell everything or they'd be compromising investigation and tactics. We lost an officer last month who left behind a wife pregnant with triplets and a 14-month old son - four babies who will never know their father. I will be wearing my mourning band all week, and have been since Easter Sunday.

I in no way am condoning these officers' actions but I won't condemn them either because I wasn't there, just saying don't judge what you don't know.

Stepping off my soapbox now

[kittymomma]

I totally understand that officers are not in an easy situation. I just always thought that at least an attempt to deliver a search warrant was a little more civil than bringing out a swat team from the get go. Like knocking and waiting for a response....

[Jenn Kellams]

I in no way am condoning these officers' actions but I won't condemn them either because I wasn't there, just saying don't judge what you don't know.

I am not judging anyone. I just wanted to see what everyone's opinions were of this.

I have personally lost a great friend, a cop, due to an idiot with a gun. My brother is a cop and puts himself in the line of danger every single day. I am not condemning or condoning anything. That isn't the point of the article though. The point is that this guy was raided due to some anonymous tip and resin from weed found in his garbage. Why couldn't this have been done in the day? Why couldn't they stake out his place and watch for criminal acts or something that even made him suspicious. My point in posting this is that things like this happen all the time based on incorrect information. I just feel like there are MANY other ways this could have been handled.

The article made a great point and I quote "Even when everything goes right in such a raid, breaking into the home of someone merely suspected of a nonviolent, consensual crime is an inappropriate use of force in a free society."

[lilmacgil]

I in no way am condoning these officers' actions but I won't condemn them either because I wasn't there, just saying don't judge what you don't know.

I am not judging anyone. I just wanted to see what everyone's opinions were of this.

I have personally lost a great friend, a cop, due to an idiot with a gun. My brother is a cop and puts himself in the line of danger every single day. I am not condemning or condoning anything. That isn't the point of the article though. The point is that this guy was raided due to some anonymous tip and resin from weed found in his garbage. Why couldn't this have been done in the day? Why couldn't they stake out his place and watch for criminal acts or something that even made him suspicious. My point in posting this is that things like this happen all the time based on incorrect information. I just feel like there are MANY other ways this could have been handled.

The article made a great point and I quote "Even when everything goes right in such a raid, breaking into the home of someone merely suspected of a nonviolent, consensual crime is an inappropriate use of force in a free society."

My problem with the article is that he doesn't have all the information the officers had prior to getting this search warrant. Yet, his words are taken as fact. Police collect information on suspicious people all the time and it is not public record. This guy's criminal record may not show history of violence, but there could have been more information that was not released to the public about him. I'm only trying to point out that no one has all the information, including the article writer. I have a lot of respect for good media, but I am still cautious in believing what is written...Case in point, I was the first officer on the scene of a homicide. The victim was stabbed several times and laying in a parking lot. I WATCHED the fire department cut the chain holding a gate closed to get to him. The news reported that the victim was so desparate to save himself that he pulled the chain off the fence. When I went to court for this case, the ONLY thing I testified to was the fact that I watched the fire department cut the chain. The news media's misinformation was taken as fact here and I know it happens more than anyone wants to admit. I worked in media services and I heard my words and others twisted or spun to the media's liking. It's a lesson in objectivity for sure.



That being said, I know there are cops who act rashly and who aren't trained as much as others. But by far, they are the minority, though you'd never know by reading, watching, or listening to the news. The bad stuff makes headlines. The good stuff is tucked away in the middle of the paper, if at all.

[MLee]

I will say this, every time that someone uses the excuse that "we have to do this to protect _____________" and you can fill in the blank with whatever you chose, then we as American citizens just lost another freedom.

It doesn't matter what the information was that the cops had, what they did here was wrong and any civil libertarian will tell you that and it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it.

If you don't want a dangerous job and don't want to put your life on the line, then don't become a cop. But don't take away my freedoms guaranteed to me in the constitution just because the job is hard and there are bad guys on the street.

[lilmacgil]

I will say this, every time that someone uses the excuse that "we have to do this to protect _____________" and you can fill in the blank with whatever you chose, then we as American citizens just lost another freedom.

It doesn't matter what the information was that the cops had, what they did here was wrong and any civil libertarian will tell you that and it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it.

If you don't want a dangerous job and don't want to put your life on the line, then don't become a cop. But don't take away my freedoms guaranteed to me in the constitution just because the job is hard and there are bad guys on the street.

I don't believe for one second the writers of our constitution intended for it to be used to protect the bad guys. And cops "don't take away your freedoms". Lawmakers make the law. Judges and juries put people in jail. Cops enforce the law and place charges. If you don't like the law, take it up with the lawmakers. Not the cops. We don't like them all either and we have to fight for new ones just like the regular citizen.

[oceanbreezes423]

I was not going to reply to this at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me. We live in an increasingly violent world, it is all around us. That is a sad reality! And I am sure that there are times when such force perhaps is necessary. I guess my concerns would be the child that was in that home. If an investigation had been done, why were they not aware of this, and could this had been done when the child was not at home? Any of us who have raised children do our very best to protect them from things like this, and IF ,God willing it never would, but we subjected our child to such violence we would be held accountable , at the LEAST of endangering the welfare. Not knowing the whole story to this, as I too do not believe all that is printed, I don't know if they felt the need for such force with that man. Just seems to me that if they truly waited 8 days to execute such warrant, they could have chose a time when less likely to involve that child. Now I feel better .

[Flasher]

Every occupation or group of people has bad apples - those that aren't in it for the right reasons, those that have not been trained properly, etc. I will not view all "SWAT" teams and their actions "questionable" simply because there are some that go horribly wrong. The world is a different place than it was even 20 years ago. SWAT teams are necessary and drug raids are necessary. Think about the drug violence that is going on in Mexico - can you imagine that happening in your own town? The drug business is not a polite "business". It is a brutal, dirty and deadly "business".


All that being said, I really have no opinion on this particular story itself, because I believe a lot of information is missing. I will not condone the actions of the officers, but neither will I condemn them. For starters, we don't know the entire criminal history of this man. Perhaps he has lengthy history - perhaps it's violent in nature. We just don't know all the facts. The officers are there acting on information given to them by higher-ups and prosecutors. They are doing their job.



Lastly, I agree with this statement 100%:

I don't believe for one second the writers of our constitution intended for it to be used to protect the bad guys. And cops "don't take away your freedoms". Lawmakers make the law. Judges and juries put people in jail. Cops enforce the law and place charges. If you don't like the law, take it up with the lawmakers. Not the cops. We don't like them all either and we have to fight for new ones just like the regular citizen.

[Shadywolfe]

Things like this happen all the time. This isn't the first incident and it won't be the last. Whether it's the police that were wrong or the criminal or an innocent person. Laws are made by humans, humans enforce those laws, humans break those laws, and we as humans are not perfect. You cannot expect a perfect system to be created by inperfect beings. We're all flawed.

[JeanG]

I couldn't get into the newspaper story - only saw the video. Never saw the dog, but the barking was just barking...not growling and snarling that would scare me. I do not believe they had any right to kill the dog.


As for the rest of the video - I was shocked at how quickly they crashed in, without waiting for someone to get to the door. The man kept asking what this was about and no one would answer him, which is never right. Other than that, not knowing anything else about the situation, I think it should have been handled differently. If someone did that to me, I'd sue the force, unless I was doing something illegal and had a gun in my hand. I know that every time a cop so much as stops a moving vehicle, he risks his life by walking up to it. Any cop walking a beat can be a drive-by victim at any time. Going to a domestic abuse call, I think cops should be armed to the teeth. I wouldn't want that kind of stress ever and have respect for all the good officers we have. A search warrant does not seem to me to be the place for a SWAT team. It probably made the officers feel safer.

[baltoscrapper]

Wow! That video shows what a @$%&^-up society we've become. I don't even know where to start. That was disturbing on all accounts.

[baltoscrapper]

uugh, I should heed all warnings before watching things you tell me not too (the whole dog shooting thing just has me shaking).


I can't believe what this world has come to. I feel sorry for my 9 yr old son, who is going to see it get more and more violent and I have no idea how to protect him. I don't blame the cops, they have to protect themselves (can you imagine a world with NO cops?? scary). But, it's because of all the drug crazed, stupid, idiotic, lunatic, criminal A.holes that the cops feel the need to protect themselves in this way. I would LOVE to know all the details of the case. Did they do this just because the guy smoked pot??? I can't imagine how scared his poor kid was.



Not that I buy into the whole 12/21/12 end of the world thing, but I have a "theory" myself, I call it the "flush" theory. Where oh where did all those lost civilizations really go??? Things wiped without a trace? I think God gets sick of our $hit after a while, and does the proverbial "flush". I feel like we are headed there again..............waawuushhhh! (the sound of the toilet flushing). I just hope my kid gets to live his entire life first and doesn't have to see it first hand.

[Jenn Kellams]

I guess my concerns would be the child that was in that home. If an investigation had been done, why were they not aware of this, and could this had been done when the child was not at home?


I don't know if they felt the need for such force with that man. Just seems to me that if they truly waited 8 days to execute such warrant, they could have chose a time when less likely to involve that child. Now I feel better .

This is how I felt and was my point for posting this in the first place. I just think it was crazy how this was carried out. The fact that this was videod amazes me too. We got to see first hand what people claim happen all the time.



This mans criminal record is posted in the article. There is a link to it. He has NEVER had any criminal charges or misdemeanors. Search warrants, police records, and arrest records are public record. I don't believe everything I read but in this case I have read many articles from this same person before and I do trust his research.



Unfortunately I do understand that drug raids are necessary but they should be reserved to criminals with past and at the very least a criminal with a violent past. Drug raids are absoultely not necessary for people who's garbage contained trace amounts of weed. This guy was eventually charged with a misdemeanor!! All the trauma, the death of a family pet, and the upheavel of a home for a miosdemeanor should be a crime within itself.

I don't believe for one second the writers of our constitution intended for it to be used to protect the bad guys. And cops "don't take away your freedoms". Lawmakers make the law. Judges and juries put people in jail. Cops enforce the law and place charges. If you don't like the law, take it up with the lawmakers. Not the cops. We don't like them all either and we have to fight for new ones just like the regular citizen.

I completely agree with this as well!!

[Flasher]

This mans criminal record is posted in the article. There is a link to it. He has NEVER had any criminal charges or misdemeanors. Search warrants, police records, and arrest records are public record. I don't believe everything I read but in this case I have read many articles from this same person before and I do trust his research.

OK, maybe the link is taking me to a different article. The article I'm reading does say that he has previous drug and DUI convictions. I only question his criminal past because, as the reader, I have no way of knowing if that is his complete past, or just the information from that particular county.