Information

[JenniferP]

What does everyone think here of the democrats idea of taking away 401Ks and IRAs????  In case you haven't heard, here's the basics of the plan:

-take away the plans and force people to put retirement funds into the Social Security plan, they are calling it the "Guaranteed Retirement Account"
-take away the tax deduction we receive now when we put money into our 401ks
-monies would be "invested" in government bonds
-guaranteed growth rate of 3% plus any inflation (very slow growth)
-$600 per year from the govt into the account
-force you to put 5% into these accounts.

My thoughts:
Ok, I'll put my 5% that you are going to force me to put, but not a penny more, and I will save the rest of what I am currently putting toward my retirement in a high-interest savings account (if I can find one), or invest in the stock market, and then when I do retire, I can take it out without paying high taxes or penalities AGAIN on the same money!  I don't want to invest in the government, the people that run it are toooooo crooked.  Not to mention, at a growth rate of 3%, I'll be working until I'm dead anyways.  Not to mention, that they are going to be taking away free money that your employer may give you to match contributions...  Pay cut and increase in taxes...great.

Here's an article to read - I did my best to find one that explains it, and not in a partisan way, but it's pretty much all I can find.  The news is not reporting it, for who knows what reason, this should be a HUGE deal since like half of the country is invested in mutual funds via retirement accounts.  http://blogwonks.com/2008/10/22/democra ... 01k-plans/

Very interested in hearing what you all think about this...personally I am scared of this.

[torysmom]

 this is just one of the problems we will see if the House and the Senate are run by the same party as the President.  I think that no matter which side you are on that the House and the senate shoudl be run by the opposite party as the president.  Makes it much harder to just push through your plans.  its really gives a check and balance to what each group is doing.

[corriekate]

 So then what happens to us young folk who pay in to this mandatory plan only to come around 20 yrs later and the plan not work then our $$$ is GONE and we are still screwed...

Look at SS now...bet my parents never thought they would have to worry about their later years 30 yrs ago...

I say NO WAY!  The government doesnt need to have their grubby hands on my retirement money!

[JenniferP]

 K I did this just for fun.  Please correct me if you see something wrong.

Say you are a lucky one and make 250,000 per year- from the start of your career (!).  Take away 39% for taxes (just federal taxes, not SS, state, or any other expenses) - and I don't even know if that's the correct tax rate - that number is just sticking out in my head like I've been hearing that for the tax rate.  That leaves you with $152,500.  The 5% put toward retirement is $7,625.  Now make that grow by 3% each year, add the 5% and the $600 per year.  My dad says he's going to retire when he gets $1 million dollars in his account (I have no idea if he's anywhere near that, but that's not the point, I need him for example).  You would assume that someone making $250,000 a year would need at least 1 million to maintain the same lifestyle though.  (1 million for 20 years is $50,000/year with no deductions.)  After 54 years, you would have a bit over 1 million dollars in your account.  So if you get out of college, start working at 22, you would be 76 when you retire.  hmmmmm  I would hope to be a bit younger than that to retire...

[Queen Mum]

 K I did this just for fun.  Please correct me if you see something wrong.

Say you are a lucky one and make 250,000 per year- from the start of your career (!).  Take away 39% for taxes (just federal taxes, not SS, state, or any other expenses) - and I don't even know if that's the correct tax rate - that number is just sticking out in my head like I've been hearing that for the tax rate.  That leaves you with $152,500.  The 5% put toward retirement is $7,625.  Now make that grow by 3% each year, add the 5% and the $600 per year.  My dad says he's going to retire when he gets $1 million dollars in his account (I have no idea if he's anywhere near that, but that's not the point, I need him for example).  You would assume that someone making $250,000 a year would need at least 1 million to maintain the same lifestyle though.  (1 million for 20 years is $50,000/year with no deductions.)  After 54 years, you would have a bit over 1 million dollars in your account.  So if you get out of college, start working at 22, you would be 76 when you retire.  hmmmmm  I would hope to be a bit younger than that to retire...

And if you run out of money then what?  they 'put you to sleep'?

Retire at 76?   DANG!

[mkcdaisy]

 Well i have an IRA be it a small one but still.  I, like so many other in the country right now don't have an extra 5% to give the government or anyone else for that matter.  Not to mention like it was said, look at the ss now so but the time i get ready to retire, again there is nothing and all the money I have been forced to put into it has gone to someone else that I don't even know and i get nothing.  The plans sucks a lollipop.

[Queen Mum]

 At this point my 401K is a 201................ Sigh

[corriekate]

 At this point my 401K is a 201................ Sigh

Hugs girl!

[Mom4scrappin]

 I don't like this plan. You can't trust the gov't with your $. Look at SS now. They keep taking $ out of it for other reasons and not replacing it. I for one want to save $ for retirement anyway I can with out the gov't help.

[megamay]

 First of all, SOME Democrats in the House are considering something like this. Note the use of the word SOME and the fact that this is what some in the HOUSE (not the Presidential candidates) are talking about.

Second, do you know how many bills are proposed, let alone CONSIDERED or planned, and never make it? I don't have exact figures, but it is a lot. Everyone in Congress, and most people in general, are scrambling for a way to fix the broken retirement system and the fact that the average rate of savings in this country is -1% per person! (that is NEGATIVE one percent) This is just one idea that a small group of people have on how to fix that.

Third, while I fully believe in the checks and balances system, I dont think its a good idea to base a vote for President on what the majority party currently is in Congress. We will get a chance to change the makeup of Congress sooner than we will get to change the President. Heck, if Bush got a second term, I think it is safe to say that 8 years is about the standard term for a President in this country, and I want the better guy in for the next 8 years regardless of what the makeup of Congress is right now.

Fourth, maybe having a Congress and President on the same side is what we need in this country to make changes really happen?!

Fifth, I think this election is a perfect example of how someone can be from the same party and yet not necessarily believe in the same things, especially if that person is very conservative or very liberal. I think a lot of people, even Republicans, will admit that Palin's personal views dont totally speak for her party or even her ticket with McCain. So, how can one say that all the Democratic congressmen are on the same side, or that Obama would agree with them? Also, take a look at Leiberman changing parties. the political spectrum is a continuum and most people fall somewhere close to the middle. I seriously doubt that even a majority Democratic President AND Congress would let crazy bills like this, or anything resembling socialism for that matter (since that seems to be a favorite buzzword against Obama), get through.

Sixth, did you know that we are already required to pay into a government run retirement plan? its called social security. Paying a percentage of income to a government run retirement plan is nothing new.

Finally, while retiring with a million dollars is a lofty goal, and one that I myself share, for the vast majority of people in this country, retiring with a million dollars at ANY time, let alone before 76, is just plain NOT going to happen. That goes back to the whole lack of savings plan thing. And the people who are making those savings numbers not look even worse, are the people who are contributing to 401ks and IRAs. There is NO WAY that a bill taking away all those tax breaks and incentives would ever pass. Those guys are just grasping at straws for a way to make the rest of the people in this country start saving.   

[JenniferP]

 First of all, SOME Democrats in the House are considering something like this. Note the use of the word SOME and the fact that this is what some in the HOUSE (not the Presidential candidates) are talking about.
And that SOME, is waaaaaaaay too many.  This should never be a consideration; shouldn't even make it to the table to talk about.  One person considering this is one too many.

Second, do you know how many bills are proposed, let alone CONSIDERED or planned, and never make it? I don't have exact figures, but it is a lot. Everyone in Congress, and most people in general, are scrambling for a way to fix the broken retirement system and the fact that the average rate of savings in this country is -1% per person! (that is NEGATIVE one percent) This is just one idea that a small group of people have on how to fix that.
And I wonder how many bills deserve the time that this is getting??  Do you know that while we are bailing out big banks, and considering seizing people's personal retirement accounts, there are areas in Louisiana that cannot get any kind of hurricane relief?  Do you know that the more our coast line gets destroyed, the worse hurricanes/damages are going to become??  Do you think that that problem gets the time it deserves?  Talk about that instead of stealing our 401ks.

And I wonder if personal responsibility ever crosses any of their minds.  Government is not an option to fixing problems.  Government only makes problems worse.

Third, while I fully believe in the checks and balances system, I dont think its a good idea to base a vote for President on what the majority party currently is in Congress. We will get a chance to change the makeup of Congress sooner than we will get to change the President. Heck, if Bush got a second term, I think it is safe to say that 8 years is about the standard term for a President in this country, and I want the better guy in for the next 8 years regardless of what the makeup of Congress is right now.

Too add to your comment, I don't think it's a good idea to vote for people based on party affiliation ever.  You base it on ideas and principles not party or feelings.  I wish we'd do away with parties personally.

Fourth, maybe having a Congress and President on the same side is what we need in this country to make changes really happen?!

Changes will happen if that happens, but what's to say that it's good changes?  I don't like the idea of having anyone having strong dissent toward something, but one party having enough votes to make that dissent irrelevant.  Every voice should be heard just like every vote should be counted, regardless if they agree with you or not, and we all know that is not what's going to happen because there are too many power-hungry politicians in office. 

Fifth, I think this election is a perfect example of how someone can be from the same party and yet not necessarily believe in the same things, especially if that person is very conservative or very liberal. I think a lot of people, even Republicans, will admit that Palin's personal views dont totally speak for her party or even her ticket with McCain. So, how can one say that all the Democratic congressmen are on the same side, or that Obama would agree with them? Also, take a look at Leiberman changing parties. the political spectrum is a continuum and most people fall somewhere close to the middle. I seriously doubt that even a majority Democratic President AND Congress would let crazy bills like this, or anything resembling socialism for that matter (since that seems to be a favorite buzzword against Obama), get through.

I think the statistic here is that Obama votes on party lines 96% of the time. 

Sixth, did you know that we are already required to pay into a government run retirement plan? its called social security. Paying a percentage of income to a government run retirement plan is nothing new.
And look how well that is going. 

Finally, while retiring with a million dollars is a lofty goal, and one that I myself share, for the vast majority of people in this country, retiring with a million dollars at ANY time, let alone before 76, is just plain NOT going to happen. That goes back to the whole lack of savings plan thing. And the people who are making those savings numbers not look even worse, are the people who are contributing to 401ks and IRAs. There is NO WAY that a bill taking away all those tax breaks and incentives would ever pass. Those guys are just grasping at straws for a way to make the rest of the people in this country start saving.  
 
I sure hope you are right.

[-LATE-]

 Well put Meg!
You get a gold star!! 

[megamay]

 First of all, SOME Democrats in the House are considering something like this. Note the use of the word SOME and the fact that this is what some in the HOUSE (not the Presidential candidates) are talking about.
And that SOME, is waaaaaaaay too many.  This should never be a consideration; shouldn't even make it to the table to talk about.  One person considering this is one too many.

Second, do you know how many bills are proposed, let alone CONSIDERED or planned, and never make it? I don't have exact figures, but it is a lot. Everyone in Congress, and most people in general, are scrambling for a way to fix the broken retirement system and the fact that the average rate of savings in this country is -1% per person! (that is NEGATIVE one percent) This is just one idea that a small group of people have on how to fix that.
And I wonder how many bills deserve the time that this is getting??  Do you know that while we are bailing out big banks, and considering seizing people's personal retirement accounts, there are areas in Louisiana that cannot get any kind of hurricane relief?  Do you know that the more our coast line gets destroyed, the worse hurricanes/damages are going to become??  Do you think that that problem gets the time it deserves?  Talk about that instead of stealing our 401ks.

And I wonder if personal responsibility ever crosses any of their minds.  Government is not an option to fixing problems.  Government only makes problems worse.

Third, while I fully believe in the checks and balances system, I dont think its a good idea to base a vote for President on what the majority party currently is in Congress. We will get a chance to change the makeup of Congress sooner than we will get to change the President. Heck, if Bush got a second term, I think it is safe to say that 8 years is about the standard term for a President in this country, and I want the better guy in for the next 8 years regardless of what the makeup of Congress is right now.

Too add to your comment, I don't think it's a good idea to vote for people based on party affiliation ever.  You base it on ideas and principles not party or feelings.  I wish we'd do away with parties personally.

Fourth, maybe having a Congress and President on the same side is what we need in this country to make changes really happen?!

Changes will happen if that happens, but what's to say that it's good changes?  I don't like the idea of having anyone having strong dissent toward something, but one party having enough votes to make that dissent irrelevant.  Every voice should be heard just like every vote should be counted, regardless if they agree with you or not, and we all know that is not what's going to happen because there are too many power-hungry politicians in office. 

Fifth, I think this election is a perfect example of how someone can be from the same party and yet not necessarily believe in the same things, especially if that person is very conservative or very liberal. I think a lot of people, even Republicans, will admit that Palin's personal views dont totally speak for her party or even her ticket with McCain. So, how can one say that all the Democratic congressmen are on the same side, or that Obama would agree with them? Also, take a look at Leiberman changing parties. the political spectrum is a continuum and most people fall somewhere close to the middle. I seriously doubt that even a majority Democratic President AND Congress would let crazy bills like this, or anything resembling socialism for that matter (since that seems to be a favorite buzzword against Obama), get through.

I think the statistic here is that Obama votes on party lines 96% of the time. 

Sixth, did you know that we are already required to pay into a government run retirement plan? its called social security. Paying a percentage of income to a government run retirement plan is nothing new.
And look how well that is going. 

Finally, while retiring with a million dollars is a lofty goal, and one that I myself share, for the vast majority of people in this country, retiring with a million dollars at ANY time, let alone before 76, is just plain NOT going to happen. That goes back to the whole lack of savings plan thing. And the people who are making those savings numbers not look even worse, are the people who are contributing to 401ks and IRAs. There is NO WAY that a bill taking away all those tax breaks and incentives would ever pass. Those guys are just grasping at straws for a way to make the rest of the people in this country start saving.  
 
I sure hope you are right.

I think I pretty much agree with everything you said, and I think it goes for both parties. except for maybe the change thing, I think that it can't really get much worse (I mean within reason, obviously if we brought back the Hitler from another thread that would be worse) I mean, maybe trying something new is what we need. And in the grand scheme of things, not a whole lot is going to change in just 4 years, so if the changes are really all that bad, we will vote someone else in. And like I said we get a shot at changing congress even sooner than that, so if it is REALLY bad, then congress would go back to republican in, what 2 years?

as for it being a shame that even some people are thinking. I totally agree, but it just isnt realistic to think that we can get a congress where no one is thinking anything 'crazy'. and that is not even to mention the fact that my 'crazy' might be totally different from what you think is crazy. Im just saying that a couple of guys thinking this is nothing to get worked up about.

and as for talking about 'real problems' , again I agree that our government needs to get its priorities straight, it really ISNT all about money, but as for personal responsibility, well, I think the savings rate proves that Americans CANT be trusted to save for themselves and they need the government to do something for them. Im not saying that these guys have it right at all, but maybe more tax breaks for ira's or something like that is in order. obviously we need to do SOMETHING to get Americans to stop running up credit and not saving a dime.

[JenniferP]

and as for talking about 'real problems' , again I agree that our government needs to get its priorities straight, it really ISNT all about money, but as for personal responsibility, well, I think the savings rate proves that Americans CANT be trusted to save for themselves and they need the government to do something for them. Im not saying that these guys have it right at all, but maybe more tax breaks for ira's or something like that is in order. obviously we need to do SOMETHING to get Americans to stop running up credit and not saving a dime.

I think the more tax breaks is a better idea than taking them away, but savings is not what they are concerned about.  [More tax breaks would definitely get me putting more than the 10% I put into my IRA btw.]  From what I've understood and read, they are concerned about the money they are (insert air quotes) "losing" by giving those tax breaks. 

And of the whole tax issue.  I don't know what the deal is with increasing taxes at all [for any income] - I don't think that would fix any problems. [More money, more problems.  lol]  Why can't they just find better ways to manage and spend money - that's what real people do when money gets tight anyways.  A lot of the problem is that they think when a program isn't working, they need to throw more money at it, when in actuality maybe better management of funding and better management in general is what is needed.  (Minus military I would say, defending our country is money well spent IMO.)

I am so disgusted with the whole process right now.  Both sides actually.  I kind of wish we could scrap it and start over - same system that it was supposed to be according to the founding fathers (minus the unequality issues, that was ridiculous), with those principles.  It was different people then though - people that worked hard for everything they had, and appreciated the freedoms they fought for.  Maybe that's too far from our minds now.  We think we are entitled to things instead of realizing that the freedoms we have are freedoms that have (and had) to be worked for.  

Enough of my philosophizing for one day. lol

[megamay]

 yep, I agree. I dont understand why 'balancing the budget' has become such a useless phrase. Like you said, that is what we all do with our own lives, why can't the government do that? well, you know why? the special interest groups, the people on capitol hill that have lots of money invested in various businesses adn they want to see that money grow (which is pretty much all of them). They are really just looking out for number one.

And you know what else is sad? the fact that both campaigns are just running on creating fear. Everyone is afraid now. Democrat or Republican, we are just afraid of what happens if the other side wins. I am sure there are plenty of people out there that are really positive about the GOOD that happens if their candidate wins, but it seems to me that the majority of people I hear from are really focused on how scared they are of what happens if their candidate DOESNT win. Both campaigns are just playing off of those fears and making them worse. And I think most of us want the same things in the end. Most of us just want what is best for the country and it's people. Its just sad that so many well meaning people are being pulled into the mudslinging and fear mongering that is going on in these campaigns. I am just soooo ready for it to be OVER! Then we can all get on with our lives.

[JenniferP]

  I am just soooo ready for it to be OVER! Then we can all get on with our lives.

DITTO!  .....no matter how scared I am of the outcome...