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sk..
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Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

Are there immediate plans for a 64bit app for CEP2?

Would a move to an x64bit app increase performance (on x64 systems) as with C4CW?

Would this CPU performance increase exasperate the I/O problems?
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Former Member
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

Kind of a question we'll find out when the conversion time is there, schedule unknown. Low hanging fruit, think the techs work from easy to not easy, the announcement letter saying all are aimed, and all new will certainly have 64 bit versions. Q-chem does not exactly fall in that ''easy'' department. How many beta iterations and back-offs did it take before production could be assumed? That for an opt-in science with still rather limited production with 11-13 CPU years spread over 4 platforms of the 360 today.

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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

Dear skgiven,
a 64bit version should actually not be faster than the 32bit version. The only difference is that the former can address more/bigger RAM, but at a level which we never reach in CEP2 (or any other BOINC project) anyways. So it makes sense that it is not a high priority for the IBM WCG team.
Best wishes
Your Harvard CEP team
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ThreadRipper
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

But don't 64 bit CPUs have 64-bit registers so calculations can be done directly on 64 bit data rather than fetching and loading 2x32 bits? Or at least one can store/fetch 2x32 bits of data into one registereven if say calculations are not performed on 64 bit data in one time?

Edit: Btw, great to have so active scientists on the forums :)
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Falconet
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

Essential the 64 bit CPUs have 32 bit Floating point registers, the issue why the gain is limited... for years 8% gain has been ''floating'' around. Compare a 32 bit client benchmark with a 64 bit client in dual boot and you'll discover that the Whetstone (FPOPS) part of the benchmarks are virtually identical. The Integer part of the test, Dhrystone, is often near or more than double.

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sk..
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

a 64bit version should actually not be faster than the 32bit version
Essentially 64 bit CPUs have 32 bit Floating point registers
So you are suggesting CEP2 is a floating point intensive project and would not benefit in terms of performance because 64bit processors use 32bit floating point registers.
My understanding of 64bit CPU’s is that they run x86 tasks in emulation mode. So I thought by simply running x64 apps there would be some benefit from not using emulation, and possibly some benefit from using 64bit libraries. I think that even 8% is worth having.
The only difference is that the former can address more/bigger RAM, but at a level which we never reach in CEP2 (or any other BOINC project) anyways. So it makes sense that it is not a high priority for the IBM WCG team.
Perhaps there would be little or no performance difference and it’s presently low priority, but looking into the near future, “A Bulldozer core module has two 128-bit floating point units, which can do two 64-bit double-precision operations per clock or four 32-bit single precision operations. Either core in the module can see if the other core is doing floating point math. If it is not, then one core can take all 256 bits and do four double-precision or eight single-precision ops in a single clock cycle. AMD has started calling this an AVX mode”.
WRT the amount of RAM used, 3.2/3.5GB of RAM can be easily reached when running CEP2; you just need a common operating system such as Vista or Win7 that uses over 1GB RAM within seconds of logging on, a couple of desktop applications (Outlook, Firefox) running and you’re up to 2GB. Use 4 threads and you are already pushing 1.6GB bringing you over the 3.5GB mark. 6 threads for an AMD X6 or all 8 threads of an average i7 and you are in deep trouble. Throw in a couple of GPU tasks and you are throttling the drive to the point you are wasting your time. I would not expect too many people to have a 12 threads x86 system but there might be a few.
Several non WCG-Boinc projects use enough memory to test a quad on x86.
Within a few months 16 to 32 thread systems will start to become common, so do you think a 64bit app for CEP2 would be useful, or would you be happy with the project remaining 32bit for the long term?
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

applause
RAM used by quad/hexa/octo cores plus normal usage by foreground programs the user runs plus OS -- very good argument for 64-bit programs that can be placed out past the 4 GB limit.

Congrats for a good argument, skgiven. Keep in mind that WCG already wants to make new projects available in 64-bit. HCC is just the first such trial for a project. (I am running 2 64-bit HCC work units right now.) So this is the future that WCG already intends. The staff will schedule conversions as seems best to them.

biggrin
Lawrence

Added: smile Sekerob is right. I meant C4CW rather than HCC 64-bit.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Mar 19, 2011 8:20:37 PM]
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

applause
RAM used by quad/hexa/octo cores plus normal usage by foreground programs the user runs plus OS -- very good argument for 64-bit programs that can be placed out past the 4 GB limit.

Congrats for a good argument, skgiven. Keep in mind that WCG already wants to make new projects available in 64-bit. HCC is just the first such trial for a project. (I am running 2 64-bit HCC work units right now.) So this is the future that WCG already intends. The staff will schedule conversions as seems best to them.

biggrin
Lawrence

Lawrence,

Re the bolded bit in the quote, I'd love to have them now too, but my Linux quad is only getting C4CW 64 bit work in the mix.

skgiven,

To convert or not to convert, the answer was given in the very first reply: Order of work is as I described, unless there are those who start working on the hardest nuts with the lowest effect on production, not knowing if they'll succeed. As cleanenergy replied, he'll accept from what he knows intimately, that CEP2 is of a lower priority order in this transition, the 8% mentioned as a reference of what to expect. 8% of 11-13 years, however well argued that it would benefit, still does not warrant high placement. But why argue when WCG has made the statement as to what it is doing and committed to do all future sciences this way for sure?

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edit:

A PS: We should not forget that by the mere running on 64 bit OS we have already taken a substantial part of the achievable gain as countless have observed switching from 32 to 64 bit OSses.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Mar 19, 2011 8:59:09 AM]
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Ingleside
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Re: Questions about a potential 64 Bit application for the Clean Energy Project

So you are suggesting CEP2 is a floating point intensive project and would not benefit in terms of performance because 64bit processors use 32bit floating point registers.

CEP2 does QM-calculations, so would expect 99%+ of calculations is floating-point.

My understanding of 64bit CPU’s is that they run x86 tasks in emulation mode. So I thought by simply running x64 apps there would be some benefit from not using emulation, and possibly some benefit from using 64bit libraries. I think that even 8% is worth having.

If no other changes to application, like possible to change compiler-flags (since you're guaranteed atleast SSE2-optimized on 64-bit), a floating-point heavy application being re-compiled for 64-bit will AFAIK have neither a significant speed-increase nor a significant speed-decrease.

If not mis-remembers, for SIMAP their 64-bit windows-application released in 2009 was around 1% faster than the 32-bit was.
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